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Show rules for this event
This is an experimental round where we have art submissions that then act as prompts for fics.
Not sure how it'll go, but we'll find out!
If you have any friends that prefer drawing to writing, you should let them know. In the poll I did for this I also asked how many entries I should expect, and while I estimate enough to make the round function, more variety (and new faces) is always a welcome sight.
Voting on art entries uses the same system as fic ones, except there is only 1 round. There's a special award given to the entry with the most associated fics.
Not sure exactly how to handle email notifications for this, since "Prompt selected" meaning to act as "Fic subs opened" won't be appropriate. SImilarly there's a separate "Voting started" and "Results up" for both modes.
Not sure how it'll go, but we'll find out!
If you have any friends that prefer drawing to writing, you should let them know. In the poll I did for this I also asked how many entries I should expect, and while I estimate enough to make the round function, more variety (and new faces) is always a welcome sight.
Voting on art entries uses the same system as fic ones, except there is only 1 round. There's a special award given to the entry with the most associated fics.
Not sure exactly how to handle email notifications for this, since "Prompt selected" meaning to act as "Fic subs opened" won't be appropriate. SImilarly there's a separate "Voting started" and "Results up" for both modes.
I would encourage flexibility in interpreting the art prompts when it's writing time. I would also encourage grace on the part of reviewers when judging how a story fits the prompts. My concern is that we might tend to get only stories featuring the characters and situations depicted in the winning art pieces, whereas Equestria is a land rich with story and character possibilities.
Maybe have it so that the art contest's results is the thing that the writers are then supposed to based their stories around?
So is it only art specifically drawn for the contest that we can submit as prompts? Or can we submit anything we find that's suitably inspirational?
>>Garnot
AFAIK, the number of stories that are based on a given piece of art is part of how they are judged.
AFAIK, the number of stories that are based on a given piece of art is part of how they are judged.
>>Monokeras
You have to own the work, so I don't think screen-grabs or collages would cut it.
>>MonarchDodora
Same rules as for fics.
You have to own the work, so I don't think screen-grabs or collages would cut it.
>>MonarchDodora
Same rules as for fics.
So, it seems like there's a fair amount of confusion on how this is supposed to work. Here's my best understanding, which may still be wrong. As far as I can tell, it's kinda a two-stage contest.
People submit prompts.
People use those prompts to create and submit art.
That art is both voted on, in a similar manner to the stories, and also used as prompts for the writing round.
Instead of the normal prompt submission/voting, authors pick a piece of artwork as a prompt, write a story that's inspired by it, and submit.
After that, it runs according to the normal writeoff setup.
>>Monokeras The rules specifically say 'drawing', but I bet that's a holdover from the past and not intended to be a strict restriction. That's probably worth asking about....
>>RogerDodger, if more than just 'drawing' is allowed, it might be worth clarifying that. Can people submit painting? Photography? Collage? 3d modeling? Calligraphy? Knowing the experimental nature of the writeoffs, I would be shocked if we didn't get some sort of boundary-pushing at some point, so guidelines on how to deal with this would be a good idea, I think. Maybe it could wait a round to see how well this does, first, but yeah.
>>MonarchDodora Gotta make it yourself, I think.This is, I believe, covered in the rules under 'may start drawing only after the prompt is released;' but I think it would be better with the addition of something like 'all content submitted must be created specifically for this contest' - because I can just about hear people thinking something like 'well, I didn't create it myself, so the time limits don't really apply, right?'
Honestly, I feel like allowing submissions that weren't self-created would be interesting, but I'm not sure that would work well unless it was its own round or something... since part of the intent is also to rank the artwork.
>>Fenton You can write without drawing, just like you can write without submitting a prompt in the normal rounds.
>>Garnot That is, in fact, the intent! This has been done before (before my time) but if you're interested in what's come before, check out the writeoff round 'Deal with the Devil'.
>>QuillScratch Actually, going by Roger's comment in the fimfic thread that discussed how this round would work, the way art is ranked should be the same as the fiction rounds. However, there is a new award called 'the Lightbulb' which is, I believe, awarded to the piece which inspires a winning story.
Hopefully this helps someone better understand what's going on here. I've done this to the best of my understanding, but I may well be wrong in general or specifically.
People submit prompts.
People use those prompts to create and submit art.
That art is both voted on, in a similar manner to the stories, and also used as prompts for the writing round.
Instead of the normal prompt submission/voting, authors pick a piece of artwork as a prompt, write a story that's inspired by it, and submit.
After that, it runs according to the normal writeoff setup.
>>Monokeras The rules specifically say 'drawing', but I bet that's a holdover from the past and not intended to be a strict restriction. That's probably worth asking about....
>>RogerDodger, if more than just 'drawing' is allowed, it might be worth clarifying that. Can people submit painting? Photography? Collage? 3d modeling? Calligraphy? Knowing the experimental nature of the writeoffs, I would be shocked if we didn't get some sort of boundary-pushing at some point, so guidelines on how to deal with this would be a good idea, I think. Maybe it could wait a round to see how well this does, first, but yeah.
>>MonarchDodora Gotta make it yourself, I think.This is, I believe, covered in the rules under 'may start drawing only after the prompt is released;' but I think it would be better with the addition of something like 'all content submitted must be created specifically for this contest' - because I can just about hear people thinking something like 'well, I didn't create it myself, so the time limits don't really apply, right?'
Honestly, I feel like allowing submissions that weren't self-created would be interesting, but I'm not sure that would work well unless it was its own round or something... since part of the intent is also to rank the artwork.
>>Fenton You can write without drawing, just like you can write without submitting a prompt in the normal rounds.
>>Garnot That is, in fact, the intent! This has been done before (before my time) but if you're interested in what's come before, check out the writeoff round 'Deal with the Devil'.
>>QuillScratch Actually, going by Roger's comment in the fimfic thread that discussed how this round would work, the way art is ranked should be the same as the fiction rounds. However, there is a new award called 'the Lightbulb' which is, I believe, awarded to the piece which inspires a winning story.
Hopefully this helps someone better understand what's going on here. I've done this to the best of my understanding, but I may well be wrong in general or specifically.
>>Monokeras Interpretive dance? No, on second thought, seeing some of our authors in tutus.... Brrrr....
>>CoffeeMinion I would also encourage mercy when it comes to figuring out just what some of the art 'means'
"I think that's a kidney? No, looks more like a liver. Or it might be a spleen. I just can't figure out why the penguin is carrying it, and what the significance of the flying halibut is?"
>>CoffeeMinion I would also encourage mercy when it comes to figuring out just what some of the art 'means'
"I think that's a kidney? No, looks more like a liver. Or it might be a spleen. I just can't figure out why the penguin is carrying it, and what the significance of the flying halibut is?"
>>Not_A_Hat
For the most part, yeah, I'm going with a "wait and see how the first one goes" before settling on any rules.
The ToS requires you to own all submitted work.
I suppose strictly speaking the current wording would allow you to commission something, but I think that would defeat the point...
For the most part, yeah, I'm going with a "wait and see how the first one goes" before settling on any rules.
This is, I believe, covered in the rules under 'may start drawing only after the prompt is released;' but I think it would be better with the addition of something like 'all content submitted must be created specifically for this contest' - because I can just about hear people thinking something like 'well, I didn't create it myself, so the time limits don't really apply, right?'
The ToS requires you to own all submitted work.
I suppose strictly speaking the current wording would allow you to commission something, but I think that would defeat the point...
>>Morning Sun I'm going to pretend that's a typo, and that you meant to say "ferns," and that you're some sort of mad hippie person.
Ohhhhhh, man am I glad that I decided to bring my drawing pad with me on my vacation, because this seems really fun!
...I forgot my chalk pastels though. :( Looks like I'll be working in pencil for this.
It occurs to me that an equivalent of GroaningGreyAgony's exercise of writing a basic idea for every prompt could be making a rough sketch of each prompt. That might take way too much time though, even if it could be an interesting creative exercise. :/
...I forgot my chalk pastels though. :( Looks like I'll be working in pencil for this.
It occurs to me that an equivalent of GroaningGreyAgony's exercise of writing a basic idea for every prompt could be making a rough sketch of each prompt. That might take way too much time though, even if it could be an interesting creative exercise. :/
I can't draw to save my life, so I'll be bowing out of that part. Still, this is a pretty cool idea on the whole and I look forward to seeing what art it produces.
I wonder... when some of this stuff inevitably ends up on Derpibooru, will that mean an uptick in Writeoff interest?
I wonder... when some of this stuff inevitably ends up on Derpibooru, will that mean an uptick in Writeoff interest?
You know, the more I think about it, the more this seems like a really creative game of artistic telephone. We get a prompt, we draw it to try and convey that prompt, and somebody writes a story from whatever prompt they see in what we drew. Like in a game of telephone, it'll be fun to see how meaning changes between the stages.
Also, I've been debating with myself on whether it'd work for someone to write a story based on their own drawing. I don't think that'd usually give them much of an advantage, but it also could be that they'd be thinking of a story while drawing and effectively get four-ish extra days of planning time. On the other hand, that doesn't seem to happen for people who submit winning prompts. Though they also don't know if they will win while any drawing can be written off of...
Also, I've been debating with myself on whether it'd work for someone to write a story based on their own drawing. I don't think that'd usually give them much of an advantage, but it also could be that they'd be thinking of a story while drawing and effectively get four-ish extra days of planning time. On the other hand, that doesn't seem to happen for people who submit winning prompts. Though they also don't know if they will win while any drawing can be written off of...
>>shinygiratinaz
Hmm, thought for the format. How about writers can opt into blinding out the artist's prompt? That way they only work off what's been drawn rather than subconsiously encorporating the prompt.
creative game of artistic telephone.
Hmm, thought for the format. How about writers can opt into blinding out the artist's prompt? That way they only work off what's been drawn rather than subconsiously encorporating the prompt.
>>billymorph
Ohh, that could be really interesting. Knowing the prompt could definitely bias meaning for those who are just writing off of the drawings. I don't know if a customisable block to the prompt is feasible, but it seems like a cool idea to me.
Ohh, that could be really interesting. Knowing the prompt could definitely bias meaning for those who are just writing off of the drawings. I don't know if a customisable block to the prompt is feasible, but it seems like a cool idea to me.
>>shinygiratinaz
But wouldn't the prompt be the same for everyone, the winning prompt from the prompt voting? I don't think there's a way to exclude only people who are here exclusively to write, not without them actively signing up for such a thing and thus identifying themselves.
But wouldn't the prompt be the same for everyone, the winning prompt from the prompt voting? I don't think there's a way to exclude only people who are here exclusively to write, not without them actively signing up for such a thing and thus identifying themselves.
>>Kitcat36
That was more what I was thinking of, about being able to sign up to not see the prompt given to the drawing round (it was what I meant by "customisable"). All the drawings would be off that prompt, true, but they wouldn't all be the same and the stories are based on the drawings not the drawing prompt. I think billymorph's idea would be a fun option, because it would mean that people who write the stories could choose to not be influenced by the prompt for the drawings, and only would use the artist's vision as their prompt.
That was more what I was thinking of, about being able to sign up to not see the prompt given to the drawing round (it was what I meant by "customisable"). All the drawings would be off that prompt, true, but they wouldn't all be the same and the stories are based on the drawings not the drawing prompt. I think billymorph's idea would be a fun option, because it would mean that people who write the stories could choose to not be influenced by the prompt for the drawings, and only would use the artist's vision as their prompt.
>>Cold in Gardez
I wanted to maintain the set schedule for the fic part of the event.
>>shinygiratinaz
The event prompt appears in too many places, most notably URLs, for it to be feasible to hide it from the user.
I wanted to maintain the set schedule for the fic part of the event.
>>shinygiratinaz
The event prompt appears in too many places, most notably URLs, for it to be feasible to hide it from the user.
And so, it begins!
Hmmm...
Considering the prompt, do I get extra points if I make a drawing with charcoal?
Hmmm...
Considering the prompt, do I get extra points if I make a drawing with charcoal?
The crap is this? I received no notification by email about this one. :raritydespair:
Also, Is "Rising From the Ashes (sic)" the prompt for the images? The desc seems to suggest the prompt is chosen from the images, rather...? Or are these different prompts.
Hmm. I might do a thing, but the timing is not super-good here with no weekend parts in play and no advance warning. But I'll try, time permitting.
Also, Is "Rising From the Ashes (sic)" the prompt for the images? The desc seems to suggest the prompt is chosen from the images, rather...? Or are these different prompts.
Hmm. I might do a thing, but the timing is not super-good here with no weekend parts in play and no advance warning. But I'll try, time permitting.
Art Submit form doesn't work right now. (You will just see an error page with text "Bad session".)
I'm working on it.
>>Trick_Question
Yes.
I'm working on it.
>>Trick_Question
Also, Is "Rising From the Ashes (sic)" the prompt for the images?
Yes.
I've got the time and I'm going to see what I can do about writing something for this one (seeing as how I was the one who suggested the prompt this time, I think I'd better <:)
How many submissions of artwork are allowed per round?
Also, do the drawings have to be MLP related or are they as broad as how typed up prompts currently are?
Also, do the drawings have to be MLP related or are they as broad as how typed up prompts currently are?
>>Kritten
I suppose that a large power of 2 is involved somehow. That, or your willingness to donate the cost of a new server to Roger.
As far as I know, multiple entries are permitted, as with stories, and they should be MLP related as this is a pony round.
I suppose that a large power of 2 is involved somehow. That, or your willingness to donate the cost of a new server to Roger.
As far as I know, multiple entries are permitted, as with stories, and they should be MLP related as this is a pony round.
I dare people to do this round without labeling stories in their reviews. No "Good or bad" story tags. Just pure unbiased neutral optimism. I may write this round. Art speaks more to me than just an formless idea. Idk something about a picture that makes me wanna spark a breath of life into it.
>>RogerDodger
How is anonymity handled for art submissions? I was just wondering, because artists might be reluctant to upload artwork without an artist tag.
How is anonymity handled for art submissions? I was just wondering, because artists might be reluctant to upload artwork without an artist tag.
>>wYvern
Same as fics. Any kind of identifying marks would be an instant DQ.
Not sure how to handle that concern without totally throwing out the anonymity rule.
Same as fics. Any kind of identifying marks would be an instant DQ.
Not sure how to handle that concern without totally throwing out the anonymity rule.
>>RogerDodger
You could reserve a strip at the bottom of the image for a signature, maybe 20 pixels high. This is covered by a black bar by default when you upload (you can uncheck a box to avoid this if you have no signature). The bar states that the image belongs to ‘generic writeoff artist, rights reserved by artist, contest url, etc.’ When the round is over, images revert to original status and the signature is uncovered thenceforth.
This sounds like an awful lot of trouble to implement, though.
You could reserve a strip at the bottom of the image for a signature, maybe 20 pixels high. This is covered by a black bar by default when you upload (you can uncheck a box to avoid this if you have no signature). The bar states that the image belongs to ‘generic writeoff artist, rights reserved by artist, contest url, etc.’ When the round is over, images revert to original status and the signature is uncovered thenceforth.
This sounds like an awful lot of trouble to implement, though.
>>GroaningGreyAgony
That sounds way too convoluted to actually work, though I think you're on the right track—
The purpose of watermarks / signatures is that if the image is rehosted elsewhere, people who see the rehosted image can still find who the original artist is. A watermark that points to https://writeoff.me/event/66-Rising-From-the-Ashes/art/gallery or https://writeoff.me/art/$id_uri (you can figure out $id_uri by submitting and then editing) would also achieve this, albeit adding an extra layer of indirection.
That sounds way too convoluted to actually work, though I think you're on the right track—
The purpose of watermarks / signatures is that if the image is rehosted elsewhere, people who see the rehosted image can still find who the original artist is. A watermark that points to https://writeoff.me/event/66-Rising-From-the-Ashes/art/gallery or https://writeoff.me/art/$id_uri (you can figure out $id_uri by submitting and then editing) would also achieve this, albeit adding an extra layer of indirection.
>>Remedyfortheheart
I cannot make heads or tails of what you mean by this.
Additionally, 'just pure unbiased neutral optimism'... it is (1) impossible to be purely neutral, and this lies in opposition to '[imposed] optimism', and (2) in large part contrary to the educational benefit of having others dissect and critique the work presented.
I dare people to do this round without labeling stories in their reviews. No "Good or bad" story tags. Just pure unbiased neutral optimism.
I cannot make heads or tails of what you mean by this.
Additionally, 'just pure unbiased neutral optimism'... it is (1) impossible to be purely neutral, and this lies in opposition to '[imposed] optimism', and (2) in large part contrary to the educational benefit of having others dissect and critique the work presented.
>>RogerDodger
I gather you’d prefer that the artists handle the URL by ‘client side rendering.’ :) I can do that easily enough. Maybe doing it automatically can be a later feature if the art writeoffs continue.
ETA: Having the URL watermark automatically added by the site would help keep things anonymous by enforcing conformity. In lieu of this, the artists should have some formatting guidelines for the URL, such as font=Arial and so on.
I gather you’d prefer that the artists handle the URL by ‘client side rendering.’ :) I can do that easily enough. Maybe doing it automatically can be a later feature if the art writeoffs continue.
ETA: Having the URL watermark automatically added by the site would help keep things anonymous by enforcing conformity. In lieu of this, the artists should have some formatting guidelines for the URL, such as font=Arial and so on.
This may have been covered, but:
I assume it will be against the rules to write a story based on your own art submission, since that would more-than-double your thinking-and-writing time for anypony who chooses to use their own idea.
I assume it will be against the rules to write a story based on your own art submission, since that would more-than-double your thinking-and-writing time for anypony who chooses to use their own idea.
>>Trick_Question... on the other hand, this would make guessing rather easier, on both the art and writing side, since you could definitely say someone who made a certain piece of art couldn't have written x fics, and vice versa.
I don't think this actually has been answered definitely.
>>RogerDodger?
This could be (somewhat) mitigated by not revealing who arted what until after finals, but... ehhh. That feels really clunky to me.
EDIT: Realized this wouldn't matter on art guessing at all, because you'd need fic authors revealed. Sorry, I'm apparently derping hard today. :P
I don't think this actually has been answered definitely.
>>RogerDodger?
This could be (somewhat) mitigated by not revealing who arted what until after finals, but... ehhh. That feels really clunky to me.
EDIT: Realized this wouldn't matter on art guessing at all, because you'd need fic authors revealed. Sorry, I'm apparently derping hard today. :P
>>Not_A_Hat
That would only be true if it was revealed which piece of art inspired which piece of writing before the writing final is over. (Dunno how that's handled right now, just saying)
on the other hand, this would make guessing rather easier, on both the art and writing side, since you could definitely say someone who made a certain piece of art couldn't have written x fics, and vice versa.
That would only be true if it was revealed which piece of art inspired which piece of writing before the writing final is over. (Dunno how that's handled right now, just saying)
>>wYvern That's true, that would be another way to deal with it. I think, as it's currently set up, they do reveal that? Check out Deal with the Devil's story gallery; the related artwork is clearly linked. But changing that probably wouldn't be too hard, although it would also be cool to see what inspired which.
>>Not_A_Hat
The related artwork is linked, but so are the authors. We don't really know if it was linked during voting.
You are right that seeing which artwork inspired which piece of writing would be nice during reviewing. One could take the piece of art and how the author interpreted it into account... then again, maybe trying to match the inspiring piece of art to its respective stories or vice versa would also make for intriguing guessing?
The related artwork is linked, but so are the authors. We don't really know if it was linked during voting.
You are right that seeing which artwork inspired which piece of writing would be nice during reviewing. One could take the piece of art and how the author interpreted it into account... then again, maybe trying to match the inspiring piece of art to its respective stories or vice versa would also make for intriguing guessing?
>>Trick_Question
This is already possible in regular rounds, to a lesser extent. One person gets their own winning prompt, that they might've planned for. Some people plan ideas early and work the winning prompt in when it's revealed. A few even brainstorm one idea for everything on the prompt list. It's honor-system that nobody writes early.
Hypothetically, I would cheat by doing it the other way around: create artwork that is so specifically tailored to the story I already planned to write, and almost no room for interpretation. If one or two people do it, it's probably not a big deal (it won't necessarily produce higher-ranked stories). If everyone does it, the artwork round becomes pointless, as everyone's just writing for themselves and not the shared art prompts. The collective quality of the artwork pool goes down, and writers who didn't submit a picture are at a disadvantage (maybe?)
I think it shouldn't be ruled against just yet. It's an experimental round, and we'll see what results we get. If too many people break the honor-system to cheat here, Roger can ban it. or simply not allow art rounds ever again.
This is already possible in regular rounds, to a lesser extent. One person gets their own winning prompt, that they might've planned for. Some people plan ideas early and work the winning prompt in when it's revealed. A few even brainstorm one idea for everything on the prompt list. It's honor-system that nobody writes early.
Hypothetically, I would cheat by doing it the other way around: create artwork that is so specifically tailored to the story I already planned to write, and almost no room for interpretation. If one or two people do it, it's probably not a big deal (it won't necessarily produce higher-ranked stories). If everyone does it, the artwork round becomes pointless, as everyone's just writing for themselves and not the shared art prompts. The collective quality of the artwork pool goes down, and writers who didn't submit a picture are at a disadvantage (maybe?)
I think it shouldn't be ruled against just yet. It's an experimental round, and we'll see what results we get. If too many people break the honor-system to cheat here, Roger can ban it. or simply not allow art rounds ever again.
>>wYvern
I assumed that was the intended procedure.
I think it's much more interesting to already know which artwork a story goes with, and judge it based on how well it used it... kinda like how cover art on FimFic becomes a reader's first impression. Having to guess ourselves is just another step of busywork. Besides, we'll collaboratively figure it out in the comments within the first day, so it's not a very good masquerade ball. Guessing authors is much more challenging/fun.
and if it's impossible to identify which artwork the story was based on, then in my opinion it's not good writing.
You are right that seeing which artwork inspired which piece of writing would be nice during reviewing.
I assumed that was the intended procedure.
I think it's much more interesting to already know which artwork a story goes with, and judge it based on how well it used it... kinda like how cover art on FimFic becomes a reader's first impression. Having to guess ourselves is just another step of busywork. Besides, we'll collaboratively figure it out in the comments within the first day, so it's not a very good masquerade ball. Guessing authors is much more challenging/fun.
and if it's impossible to identify which artwork the story was based on, then in my opinion it's not good writing.
>>Haze
You're right, not revealing the associated artwork really doesn't make a lot of sense after all.
I think the painting thing is much esier to take advantage of than being the one submitting the winning prompt, though: you're sure to be able to use your own painting as prompt.
Even without trying to take advantage of that deliberately, I wonder how many people who want to participate in both the art and the writing round can help themselves building story premises in their heads while painting. I can't draw to save my life, but if I could, I might do so much thinking while working on a drawing or painting that I would not want to look for new inspiration after the art submissions end. Even if people don't want to use the system to gain an advantage, the advantage they gain might be hard to give up.
By preventing people from using their own art as prompt, that would be dealt with. Not revealing the artists until after fic voting would be harsh, though, so I don't really see a way now that would actually alow that.
You're right, not revealing the associated artwork really doesn't make a lot of sense after all.
I think the painting thing is much esier to take advantage of than being the one submitting the winning prompt, though: you're sure to be able to use your own painting as prompt.
Even without trying to take advantage of that deliberately, I wonder how many people who want to participate in both the art and the writing round can help themselves building story premises in their heads while painting. I can't draw to save my life, but if I could, I might do so much thinking while working on a drawing or painting that I would not want to look for new inspiration after the art submissions end. Even if people don't want to use the system to gain an advantage, the advantage they gain might be hard to give up.
By preventing people from using their own art as prompt, that would be dealt with. Not revealing the artists until after fic voting would be harsh, though, so I don't really see a way now that would actually alow that.
>>Haze
No. It's not remotely similar.
Normally, your prompt must win, and ponies submit prompts even when they're not in the competition. You've got like a 2% chance of your prompt winning, so it makes no sense to write a story in advance, because almost certainly it will be a wasted effort.
In this case, you have a 100% chance. Everypony knows EXACTLY what their prompt will be four days before the contest starts, so you can start writing even before you start drawing it.
I mean, if we're allowed to select our own drawing as a prompt, then I'm certainly going to start writing my story during the drawing part, because I'll just be drawing what I plan to use. Everypony can do that. So it's really a week-long writing period, not three days. Unless you want to use the "honor system" so authors can claim they waited a whole four days to start writing on a prompt they designed themselves.
And even if we do hold up by the honor system, you're still THINKING about the drawing you'll be making, so you can completely organize and design the story in your head if you want to write based on that drawing.
I think providing that opportunity is a bad idea, because everypony will be tempted. I don't think it should be permissible for writers to draw their own prompts four days in advance of the contest.
I think you should have to select a drawing from a drop-down, that can't be your own drawing, when submitting a story. That drawing should be linked to your story submission so everypony can see which drawing prompted the story before voting on the story.
No. It's not remotely similar.
Normally, your prompt must win, and ponies submit prompts even when they're not in the competition. You've got like a 2% chance of your prompt winning, so it makes no sense to write a story in advance, because almost certainly it will be a wasted effort.
In this case, you have a 100% chance. Everypony knows EXACTLY what their prompt will be four days before the contest starts, so you can start writing even before you start drawing it.
I mean, if we're allowed to select our own drawing as a prompt, then I'm certainly going to start writing my story during the drawing part, because I'll just be drawing what I plan to use. Everypony can do that. So it's really a week-long writing period, not three days. Unless you want to use the "honor system" so authors can claim they waited a whole four days to start writing on a prompt they designed themselves.
And even if we do hold up by the honor system, you're still THINKING about the drawing you'll be making, so you can completely organize and design the story in your head if you want to write based on that drawing.
I think providing that opportunity is a bad idea, because everypony will be tempted. I don't think it should be permissible for writers to draw their own prompts four days in advance of the contest.
I think you should have to select a drawing from a drop-down, that can't be your own drawing, when submitting a story. That drawing should be linked to your story submission so everypony can see which drawing prompted the story before voting on the story.
>>Trick_Question
Despite the fact I was originally going to agree with it anyway, I've just spent ten minutes trying to refute that this situation isn't similar to the multitude of options involving writing prompts, only to realise the following:
Any method* that can be used to start writing early (i.e. during prompt submission/voting) in a pure writing round can be used to start drawing early (or, at least, planning drawing), and hence is an additional problem on top of this one.
I already feel that the methods that can be used to cheat the writing time limit are toeing the line, for me, in terms of what is acceptable to leave up to honour—allowing this on top would be going far beyond it, especially given it can only be used by people who intend to enter the art side of the contest. If you can write about your own drawing it is undoubtedly an advantage in the writing contest over people who didn't/can't draw. And for that reason, I'm even more firmly on the side of this suggestion.
*Except coming up with a story idea that could fit almost any prompt, and shoehorning the prompt in when it comes out. I don't know much about drawing, but I suspect that's an awful lot harder in that medium. However, as that can be done even before prompt submission opens, I'll count it as a totally different issue.
Edit: worth noting that Roger still hasn't said that this isn't the case, though, so far as I've seen >.>
Despite the fact I was originally going to agree with it anyway, I've just spent ten minutes trying to refute that this situation isn't similar to the multitude of options involving writing prompts, only to realise the following:
Any method* that can be used to start writing early (i.e. during prompt submission/voting) in a pure writing round can be used to start drawing early (or, at least, planning drawing), and hence is an additional problem on top of this one.
I already feel that the methods that can be used to cheat the writing time limit are toeing the line, for me, in terms of what is acceptable to leave up to honour—allowing this on top would be going far beyond it, especially given it can only be used by people who intend to enter the art side of the contest. If you can write about your own drawing it is undoubtedly an advantage in the writing contest over people who didn't/can't draw. And for that reason, I'm even more firmly on the side of this suggestion.
*Except coming up with a story idea that could fit almost any prompt, and shoehorning the prompt in when it comes out. I don't know much about drawing, but I suspect that's an awful lot harder in that medium. However, as that can be done even before prompt submission opens, I'll count it as a totally different issue.
Edit: worth noting that Roger still hasn't said that this isn't the case, though, so far as I've seen >.>
>>QuillScratch
That problem isn't nearly as big.
You have to draw or write for a prompt, so until you know what the prompt is, any "early work" is largely futile—and we can hold ponies to that on the honor system fairly well because there isn't much gain from cheating.
In this case, there's a huge gain from cheating. It's the gain that the prompt was intended to prevent in the first place. If you can make your own prompt, you can start writing whenever you want. This more than doubles the amount of writing time for anypony who plans to "be inspired" by their own drawings. The benefit is guaranteed, and thus the temptation is constant.
That problem isn't nearly as big.
You have to draw or write for a prompt, so until you know what the prompt is, any "early work" is largely futile—and we can hold ponies to that on the honor system fairly well because there isn't much gain from cheating.
In this case, there's a huge gain from cheating. It's the gain that the prompt was intended to prevent in the first place. If you can make your own prompt, you can start writing whenever you want. This more than doubles the amount of writing time for anypony who plans to "be inspired" by their own drawings. The benefit is guaranteed, and thus the temptation is constant.
>>Not_A_Hat
The guessing isn't important.
That said, if the art is blind, then guessing only tells you that the visual art wasn't done by the same pony as the story. That's not much help for guessing.
If the art is known, then guessing tells you for certain that each story isn't done by one pony. So it reduces the guessing odds from 1/33 to 1/32. Again, not much help.
The guessing isn't important.
That said, if the art is blind, then guessing only tells you that the visual art wasn't done by the same pony as the story. That's not much help for guessing.
If the art is known, then guessing tells you for certain that each story isn't done by one pony. So it reduces the guessing odds from 1/33 to 1/32. Again, not much help.
>>QuillScratch
I have to admit, I mostly want it allowed to see who will actually go to the effort to do it. After the results are revealed, they'll have some 'splainin to do! for someone acting in bad faith, it's so easy to cheat in any writeoff round, but here it leaves a suspicious trail.
(it could still be justified: someone submits a picture with no intention of using it later, but when the writing phase begins they decide that none of the others are inspirational at all, and goes back to their own to start planning a story.) (or only 1 person submits any art, RIP)
But besides that, I'm curious who uses this as a cutthroat competition, versus a self-improvement workshop where one must challenge the unknown. and that view must coincide with the overlap between writers and artists, which I suspect is already rather small. but still possible. I don't believe we're all compulsive cheaters here.
I'm not opposed to setting this rule, I just support it for completely different reasons. I don't think a cheater would do well in the voting anyway, even with 4 extra days (or 4 extra months, since nobody could detect it). However, I am worried that someone might use this to produce overly-specific artwork that nobody else can work off of, and that goes against the spirit here.
I have to admit, I mostly want it allowed to see who will actually go to the effort to do it. After the results are revealed, they'll have some 'splainin to do! for someone acting in bad faith, it's so easy to cheat in any writeoff round, but here it leaves a suspicious trail.
(it could still be justified: someone submits a picture with no intention of using it later, but when the writing phase begins they decide that none of the others are inspirational at all, and goes back to their own to start planning a story.) (or only 1 person submits any art, RIP)
But besides that, I'm curious who uses this as a cutthroat competition, versus a self-improvement workshop where one must challenge the unknown. and that view must coincide with the overlap between writers and artists, which I suspect is already rather small. but still possible. I don't believe we're all compulsive cheaters here.
I'm not opposed to setting this rule, I just support it for completely different reasons. I don't think a cheater would do well in the voting anyway, even with 4 extra days (or 4 extra months, since nobody could detect it). However, I am worried that someone might use this to produce overly-specific artwork that nobody else can work off of, and that goes against the spirit here.
Oh! Well, this should prove interesting. I'll try to get the Imposing Sovereigns judging finished before we get into the writing phase. For now, I have a plugging blog to write...
>>Trick_Question
Speaking purely from conjecture, I think the selection by dropdown thing will probably have to happen in order to be able to attribute stories to the art that inspired them. I agree that it would be seemly to forbid people from selecting their own, but then that imposes a minimum of 2 art pieces for the Writeoff to be viable. Probably not an issue, but a corner case to watch out for.
I think the bigger long term challenge will be maintaining artist anonymity. People tend to have distinct styles, and even if they don't sign a given piece, it might be easy to guess the artist once we all start getting familiar with the set of Writeoff participants who can art.
Speaking purely from conjecture, I think the selection by dropdown thing will probably have to happen in order to be able to attribute stories to the art that inspired them. I agree that it would be seemly to forbid people from selecting their own, but then that imposes a minimum of 2 art pieces for the Writeoff to be viable. Probably not an issue, but a corner case to watch out for.
I think the bigger long term challenge will be maintaining artist anonymity. People tend to have distinct styles, and even if they don't sign a given piece, it might be easy to guess the artist once we all start getting familiar with the set of Writeoff participants who can art.
>>GroaningGreyAgony
Yeah. I might in future be able to add a checkbox "automatically add a watermark" to the form. Right now I can't think of an automated way that isn't super ugly.
>>Trick_Question
When I went to sleep last night I put "Users should not be able to use their own artwork as a prompt" in my TODO. I sort of assumed it was obviously not allowed, for reasons that have been posted.
However >>Not_A_Hat does make a good point I hadn't considered. This will make guessing fics slightly easier. The fic–art connections are public as soon as the fic gallery opens. The pic authors are public once the art finals are finished (same rules as for fics). Therefore, you can eliminate the pic artist from being the author of any connected fics.
This wouldn't be the case if the art finals ended at the same time as the fic ones, but I think that [art finals being 13 days] would be worse than fics being slightly easier to guess.
There is actually no art guessing, since at least originally all the participants thought it would be pointless (too easy to identify people by style). I'm not sure that's actually good reasoning though. The guessing is just for fun mostly.
In fact, an argument in favour of art guessing despite this: The concern with art guessing was it'd encourage people to identify who drew what in the thread, completely removing anonymity for everyone (not just those who know everyone's style). But if there's official (i.e. in-site) guessing, it encourages people to keep their guess secret so they can win the award.
Yeah. I might in future be able to add a checkbox "automatically add a watermark" to the form. Right now I can't think of an automated way that isn't super ugly.
>>Trick_Question
When I went to sleep last night I put "Users should not be able to use their own artwork as a prompt" in my TODO. I sort of assumed it was obviously not allowed, for reasons that have been posted.
However >>Not_A_Hat does make a good point I hadn't considered. This will make guessing fics slightly easier. The fic–art connections are public as soon as the fic gallery opens. The pic authors are public once the art finals are finished (same rules as for fics). Therefore, you can eliminate the pic artist from being the author of any connected fics.
This wouldn't be the case if the art finals ended at the same time as the fic ones, but I think that [art finals being 13 days] would be worse than fics being slightly easier to guess.
There is actually no art guessing, since at least originally all the participants thought it would be pointless (too easy to identify people by style). I'm not sure that's actually good reasoning though. The guessing is just for fun mostly.
In fact, an argument in favour of art guessing despite this: The concern with art guessing was it'd encourage people to identify who drew what in the thread, completely removing anonymity for everyone (not just those who know everyone's style). But if there's official (i.e. in-site) guessing, it encourages people to keep their guess secret so they can win the award.
>>RogerDodger
I can think of a scenario where art credits could 100% confirm who wrote a fic. more likely to happen in the finals. it's very unlikely and requires a lot of coincidences, but not impossible.
well. I hope it doesn't happen. that would suck for the author.
I can think of a scenario where art credits could 100% confirm who wrote a fic. more likely to happen in the finals. it's very unlikely and requires a lot of coincidences, but not impossible.
well. I hope it doesn't happen. that would suck for the author.
>>Haze
I assume this is the situation where every entry (probably in finals, as you say) uses one particular picture except exactly one story, and the (finals) author-guessing list includes the artist of that one picture?
The liklihood of this happening could be reduced by removing the feature that only allows you to author guess people who are actually in the finals, reducing knowledge of who even made the finals to less than 100% certainty, though this only removes the problem if the author in question also entered a fic that didn't make finals. I imagine the chances of it happening right off the bat in prelims would be minimal, but knowing our luck I wouldnt be surprised if it happeed at all.
I assume this is the situation where every entry (probably in finals, as you say) uses one particular picture except exactly one story, and the (finals) author-guessing list includes the artist of that one picture?
The liklihood of this happening could be reduced by removing the feature that only allows you to author guess people who are actually in the finals, reducing knowledge of who even made the finals to less than 100% certainty, though this only removes the problem if the author in question also entered a fic that didn't make finals. I imagine the chances of it happening right off the bat in prelims would be minimal, but knowing our luck I wouldnt be surprised if it happeed at all.
>>QuillScratch
yes, that situation. but with a correction: one artist can submit 2 or 3 (or more) pictures. the other finalists wouldn't necessarily have to pick the exact same picture, but might all choose the same artist.
short story rounds get ~10 finalists, which seems low enough that it could happen, rarely.
yes, that situation. but with a correction: one artist can submit 2 or 3 (or more) pictures. the other finalists wouldn't necessarily have to pick the exact same picture, but might all choose the same artist.
short story rounds get ~10 finalists, which seems low enough that it could happen, rarely.
>>KwirkyJ
Well that is saying we should try to be as neutral as possible as to not also dissect author confidence. Doesn't hurt to try.
Well that is saying we should try to be as neutral as possible as to not also dissect author confidence. Doesn't hurt to try.
>>Trick_Question Guessing might not be important to you (although some people do enjoy it) but anonymity is one of the cornerstones of the writeoff. If this sort of thing isn't done carefully, it sets up possibilities like >>Haze mentions, which effectively create catch-22 situations using the rules. If an author is forced to disclose their identity, through no fault of their own, would that be grounds for disqualification? If not, then are they free to explicitly state their authorship at that time, because it's already an 'open secret'?
Perhaps the possibility of this happening is low enough and the benefits of minimizing the need for honor/self control are big enough that it's worth implementing the 'can't write for your own art' rule anyways, or maybe a clever solution can be found, but I think deliberately unfair situations should be avoided if possible.
If the art contest becomes big enough and draws enough artists that it could stand well on its own, finishing the art competition completely and only using a subset of the art as the prompt could work; say, the top five images or something. This might introduce enough uncertainty to make writing ahead pretty difficult - as long as getting into the top five is reasonably uncertain. It would also provide more incentive for people to produce high-quality art. That would feel more 'fair' to me, and seeing as how the art contests got handfuls of entries even back in the day, it might be worth considering, even if it would make the schedules extra wonky.
Perhaps the possibility of this happening is low enough and the benefits of minimizing the need for honor/self control are big enough that it's worth implementing the 'can't write for your own art' rule anyways, or maybe a clever solution can be found, but I think deliberately unfair situations should be avoided if possible.
If the art contest becomes big enough and draws enough artists that it could stand well on its own, finishing the art competition completely and only using a subset of the art as the prompt could work; say, the top five images or something. This might introduce enough uncertainty to make writing ahead pretty difficult - as long as getting into the top five is reasonably uncertain. It would also provide more incentive for people to produce high-quality art. That would feel more 'fair' to me, and seeing as how the art contests got handfuls of entries even back in the day, it might be worth considering, even if it would make the schedules extra wonky.
>>Remedyfortheheart
I think it is worthwhile to try and point to something positive, even in entries that have lots of issues. That said, "I did not like it, because I hate Twidash shipfics", or "because I hate first person narration" is still valuable albeit non-neutral feedback in my book. I would not want someone to sugarcoat anything.
When you say though "I dare people to..." and "Doesn't hurt to try", it sounds as though "You suck as an author, because..." was the normal tone of conversation here, which is frankly a bit insulting. I haven't participated in a while, but I've always felt this was a highly critical, but highly constructive community that offered valuable advice and feedback to authors of all skill levels.
I think it is worthwhile to try and point to something positive, even in entries that have lots of issues. That said, "I did not like it, because I hate Twidash shipfics", or "because I hate first person narration" is still valuable albeit non-neutral feedback in my book. I would not want someone to sugarcoat anything.
When you say though "I dare people to..." and "Doesn't hurt to try", it sounds as though "You suck as an author, because..." was the normal tone of conversation here, which is frankly a bit insulting. I haven't participated in a while, but I've always felt this was a highly critical, but highly constructive community that offered valuable advice and feedback to authors of all skill levels.
>>wYvern Agreed. I've gotten some pretty harsh criticism of my work on here, but never did I feel that it was excessive or ill-intentioned. I'm not sure what >>Remedyfortheheart is referring to.
>>RogerDodger
I've been trying to post my art submission as an entry but it sends me a message saying "filesize is invalid" or when I try to edit the file it "413 Request Entity Too Large". I did try looking up the FAQ if there's a specified type of file size and file type, but there wasn't any mention of it. How could I work around this problem?
I've been trying to post my art submission as an entry but it sends me a message saying "filesize is invalid" or when I try to edit the file it "413 Request Entity Too Large". I did try looking up the FAQ if there's a specified type of file size and file type, but there wasn't any mention of it. How could I work around this problem?
>>FairyRave
I've been using file sizes under two megabytes with a jpg format. Might want to open up paint to resize the image so it's small enough to fit within the 2mb limit and also saved as a jpg image. If you're on a phone, you could probably look online ways to lower the size of an image.
I'm not sure if it works, but you can try this website: https://tinyjpg.com/
I've been using file sizes under two megabytes with a jpg format. Might want to open up paint to resize the image so it's small enough to fit within the 2mb limit and also saved as a jpg image. If you're on a phone, you could probably look online ways to lower the size of an image.
I'm not sure if it works, but you can try this website: https://tinyjpg.com/
>>Not_A_Hat
Sigh.
Knowing the artist does not compromise anonymity. It tells you ONE author that the given author is not. That's it. If there are at least four authors in the competition, this does not identify who an author is.
Please, explain to me how this compromises anonymity when there are more than thirty authors competing.
Sigh.
Knowing the artist does not compromise anonymity. It tells you ONE author that the given author is not. That's it. If there are at least four authors in the competition, this does not identify who an author is.
Please, explain to me how this compromises anonymity when there are more than thirty authors competing.
>>Trick_Question
If 29 of these authors chose one artist's artwork(s), and only one piece of writing has chosen a different artist's artwork, and the artist that has created the artwork the other 29 have chosen still has a story in the running as an author (i.e. his name is in the list of guessable authors), it's certain the author of the one story that has not chosen his/her artwork is the artist's.
Sorry, this might be expressed in a simpler fashion, but it's late.
If 29 of these authors chose one artist's artwork(s), and only one piece of writing has chosen a different artist's artwork, and the artist that has created the artwork the other 29 have chosen still has a story in the running as an author (i.e. his name is in the list of guessable authors), it's certain the author of the one story that has not chosen his/her artwork is the artist's.
Sorry, this might be expressed in a simpler fashion, but it's late.
>>Trick_Question Sigh.
It doesn't. But are you going to personally guarantee thirty finalists every round to keep your statement accurate?
It doesn't. But are you going to personally guarantee thirty finalists every round to keep your statement accurate?
>>Kitcat36
I don't know about everyone else, but I have multiple submissions. Four days is plenty of time for everyone to get something in. Or, it is for me, at least.
I don't know about everyone else, but I have multiple submissions. Four days is plenty of time for everyone to get something in. Or, it is for me, at least.
>>RogerDodger
Though I think there's another important element here - while in writing (Unless you're Bad Horse using statistical analysis programs) recognizing a 'style' is often just you picking up false signal in the noise, with artists there are highly recognizable styles. There's some people I will instantly know unless they are making significant effort to disguise themselves, or someone else is making major effort to look like them.
So that's an issue, too, I suppose, but not one I think you can correct for without major overcompensation.
Though I think there's another important element here - while in writing (Unless you're Bad Horse using statistical analysis programs) recognizing a 'style' is often just you picking up false signal in the noise, with artists there are highly recognizable styles. There's some people I will instantly know unless they are making significant effort to disguise themselves, or someone else is making major effort to look like them.
So that's an issue, too, I suppose, but not one I think you can correct for without major overcompensation.
>>Morning Sun
I am one of those who can make my art look like someone else’s. There is little point to trying it in this round as I don’t have a good sense of who else may be participating, and it takes extra time to do it. If we have more art rounds and regulars emerge, I might have a target at which to aim. This deceptive factor certainly would make art rounds more interesting, but should not be a requirement to participate.
As long as artists don’t deliberately out themselves, they should not be penalized for doing what they do as best they know how, and giving them freedom to play around and concentrate on inspiring the authors should take precedence over nailing them down with many rules designed to try to prevent abuses. It’s not as if we’re playing for money. It’s peer respect, practice and having fun in the exercise of one’s talent.
I am one of those who can make my art look like someone else’s. There is little point to trying it in this round as I don’t have a good sense of who else may be participating, and it takes extra time to do it. If we have more art rounds and regulars emerge, I might have a target at which to aim. This deceptive factor certainly would make art rounds more interesting, but should not be a requirement to participate.
As long as artists don’t deliberately out themselves, they should not be penalized for doing what they do as best they know how, and giving them freedom to play around and concentrate on inspiring the authors should take precedence over nailing them down with many rules designed to try to prevent abuses. It’s not as if we’re playing for money. It’s peer respect, practice and having fun in the exercise of one’s talent.
>>RogerDodger
I'm actually not sure what good it does to prohibit identifying marks on artwork: Many artists, especially the ones who've been around a while, have distinctive styles that make their work pretty reasonably recognizable whether it's signed or not.
So we're likely to end up with at least some pieces of artwork whose source is obvious. That, or everyone is reduced to submitting stick figure drawings, which is probably even less desirable (and arguably still might not even solve the problem).
I'm not sure what solution there is to this that's practical.
I'm actually not sure what good it does to prohibit identifying marks on artwork: Many artists, especially the ones who've been around a while, have distinctive styles that make their work pretty reasonably recognizable whether it's signed or not.
So we're likely to end up with at least some pieces of artwork whose source is obvious. That, or everyone is reduced to submitting stick figure drawings, which is probably even less desirable (and arguably still might not even solve the problem).
I'm not sure what solution there is to this that's practical.
Well... I think I did a fairly decent job considering I only spend about three hours awake at home every day.
Here's hoping the best for everyone!
Here's hoping the best for everyone!
I thought that you already couldn't write for your own art because "Participants may not submit works explicitly connected to another work of theirs" and a story submission must be explicitly connected to an art submission.
I am done arting. To bed with me! Good luck to other artists, and I hope that the fic writers will find our efforts to have been worth the candle!
>>RawCringe
That... is a really good point that I hadn't thought of for some reason. Nice catch.
I just managed to finish up something to submit. Not the best I've done, but hopefully it inspires a story for somebody!
That... is a really good point that I hadn't thought of for some reason. Nice catch.
I just managed to finish up something to submit. Not the best I've done, but hopefully it inspires a story for somebody!
>>Posh
>>wYvern
Well. I don't like seeing people go. And I've seen people come and go and just feel burdened when its not really something they should be experiencing. On the contrary though I'm just a big care bear and those who know me better in this group just know. So don't mind my overbearing heart. I just think some people are too harsh sometimes and the reviews aren't even for me. Also wouldn't a good author have an expanded open mind. I see passion as a very good trait of an author not so much their smarts and their grasp on a dictionary.
>>wYvern
Well. I don't like seeing people go. And I've seen people come and go and just feel burdened when its not really something they should be experiencing. On the contrary though I'm just a big care bear and those who know me better in this group just know. So don't mind my overbearing heart. I just think some people are too harsh sometimes and the reviews aren't even for me. Also wouldn't a good author have an expanded open mind. I see passion as a very good trait of an author not so much their smarts and their grasp on a dictionary.
I'll probably be too busy traveling to do any writing or much reading this round, but I did submit a picture!
It's nice to be participating again.
It's nice to be participating again.
Well, I arted. We'll see if I write as well. Hopefully so!
EDIT: What is the intent of the caption?
EDIT: What is the intent of the caption?
I'M A PINKIE PILE! I'M A PINKIE PILE! I'M A PINKIE PILE! LOOK AT MY PUUUUUN!!!!
I laughed but my comedy standards are very low. Still a good job.
I laughed but my comedy standards are very low. Still a good job.
The CMCs post season 5 around a campfire. Hmmm...
Interesting how the light, which is supposed to come from the fire, comes from the background.
And is it me or the flames seem to go to the fire and not come from it?
Interpretation: The CMCs are enthralled by the fire which has no light whereas the true light comes from behind them. So a reinterpretation of the allegory of the caves by Plato?
Interesting how the light, which is supposed to come from the fire, comes from the background.
And is it me or the flames seem to go to the fire and not come from it?
Interpretation: The CMCs are enthralled by the fire which has no light whereas the true light comes from behind them. So a reinterpretation of the allegory of the caves by Plato?
I guess this is Twilight Sparkle somehow, according to the mane. So a robotic version of Twilight Sparkle spreading friendship?
The light explosions make me think this is taking place during a show. It also seems the lights, unlike Twi, aren't hand drawn. The two don't really mix well for my taste.
The light explosions make me think this is taking place during a show. It also seems the lights, unlike Twi, aren't hand drawn. The two don't really mix well for my taste.
I'm so happy someone else made this joke. I was this close to making it myself.
10/10 would r8 again
10/10 would r8 again
I don't see how this could be "Rising From the Ashes." I feel like someone only made this as a joke, without a care for the prompt.
excuse me, Shadow Ashes is MY original character. whoever drew this is gonna be in big trouble for stealing him.