This is a wonderful story. Good use of extended canon. Very clever juxtaposition of the word 'ethical'. (Although I've never seen an intermediate ethics book in my life, that might actually make sense in Equestria.)

Naturally, I'm left wondering who this is. I really want to see this story extended and completed. You'd better do it or I'll snap your threads, author.

Okay. All right. I see what you're doing, author.

Something I liked:

Ohhhh, ohhhh, here's a good one. High-concept and yet more of a character study than anything, just my cup of tea. This is one of a couple Cadance deconstruction entries, but unlike the other one, which invokes humor at the expense of characterization, I can totally buy into the Cadance of this entry being the real deal. She has a special power that she can use to exploit others, even if it's in an innocuous way, and it's fascinating to see her use it in a way that isn't, "lol make these two pones do le sex." Instead we're given a seemingly innocent but kinda fucked up portrait of someone who does something questionable to get what she wants. Yet at no point is the tone compromised. Juicy.

Something I didn't like:

It's kind of a gripe, and it has more to do with the second half the first half, but something about the dialogue seem a bit off to me. It doesn't quite read as fine-tuned yet, but I'm not exactly sure how to explain how. It could be that since Cadance and Shining Armor are teenagers, they sound more awkward than their adult counterparts, but there's a consistent awkwardness in the exchanges that makes everything just a little off-base. But only a little.

Verdict: If this entry were a man, I'd totally give him a reach-around (with consent, obviously).

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it kinda struck me as OOC to have Cadance essentially manipulate Shining into liking her. (maybe this is a comic reference?)

That aside, I'm very interested to know who the voice in her head is, and how she puts this skill to use in everyday life. This concept definitely deserves to be a fleshed out story.

As short-form, this does an excellent job of establishing. We have no idea who this other voice that Cadance hears is, but we nod and say yes, okay, and in the latter half listen to the voice, Cadance, because this sounds really serious. Also the prose never gets in the way, to the point that I didn't notice how effectively it was written until I went looking for things to fix.

Both a strength and a weakness here is the end: the voice asserts in no uncertain terms that what Cadance did was very serious and probably seriously bad, and we have no reason to doubt it... so the reader is left wondering what the consequences might be. If however this is at all meant to connect with the show canon (and it should, or else why are you writing pony fan fiction), we know that things turn out really pretty good for her and Shining in the end so maybe the voice is a lying liar no-face who doesn't know what it's about anyway, which robs that intrigue.

Very nice:

Very dark, yes, but Cadance has always had a touch of squickiness to her ever since we watched her zap a couple arguing ponies till hearts appeared above their heads during Twilight's flashback way back in Part One of "Canterlot Wedding."

Like others, I wondered about the voice in her head, and I'll definitely suggest that the story might be stronger without it. Just give us Cadance, alone in her skull like the rest of us, struggling and failing against her own baser nature when confronted with something she really, really wants.

Mike

Genre: The Voices Made Me Do It

Thoughts: Ah, Writeoff controversy—how I’ve missed you. Today it’s Cadence putting the magic roofie on Shining Armor against the wishes of The Voice. Frankly I’ve seen both worse, and worse-executed. And as a side note, going by the names, my money’s on the opening couple being the parents of Cozy Glow. (Dun dun dunnnn...)

Overall, the text here is very clean. From a storytelling perspective, while it could be dissatisfying not to know who or what The Voice is, I think the story provides enough vague allusions to its purpose, and shows strength in The Voice’s and Cadence’s interactions, to get away with leaving it an unsolved mystery. I think it’s something worth keeping; it adds a lot of intrigue to see another entity speaking into her head.

But while this is a well-written slice-of-mystery, it definitely ends up asking a truckload of interesting questions without answering most of them. Perhaps even bigger than the identity question is the question about the ramifications of our heroine’s mind-screw of Shining Armor. The story acknowledges that potential consequences exist, but it leaves that hanging. IMO that crosses the line from intriguing to maddening.

And yet, I keep coming back to the story’s cleanliness and strong usage of its space. I also see little touches that incline me to nudge it over some other competitors. For instance, the detail of her wings moving involuntarily when she uses her horn makes total sense since she started as a pegasus, not a unicorn. Same with why she spends time with a remedial magic teacher.

While I do wish there were more consequences for her messing with Shining Armor (which, let us be clear, is not cool), the sheer weight of those other little details eventually win me over.

Tier: Strong

>>CoffeeMinion

my money’s on the opening couple being the parents of Cozy Glow

Oh, that's clever... but I doubt it was intentional. If I'd done this (didn't, wish I did though, I ranked it second) I would have provided more. An unnamed earth pony and a unicorn with "Glow" in his name and no other descriptors of either isn't enough to foreshadow this (and Cozy's a pegasus, which makes it even more unexpected).

This is definitely one of the more accomplished stories of the bunch that does an incredible job within the minuscule range. The idea, though familiar, is delivered here with a fresh coat of paint with not a drop wasted. The tone is rather nonchalant and to the point in a way that's almost reflective of Cadance's demeanor, starkly contrasting the horror of what's actually happening. The pacing is frighteningly neat and even. and the dialogue, though a little straightforward, does its job of breathing life into the entry. The fact that it raises so many intriguing questions by the end of it all is a testament to how impactful the story is in general.

I gotta say, I've spent a good chunk of an hour before writing out this pseudo-review mulling over this story and trying to look for even the smallest thing to gripe about and the only thing I can come up with is the possibility that we might not be getting any more from this. Hoping to see an expanded version of this, dear Author.

Thanks for writing, and good luck!

>>WritingSpirit
"Horror" is a great word for this, because I think you can miss it in the subtlety. But I think Cadance doing the voice's bidding is just as much "horror" (if not more!) than making her choice with Shiny.

So everyone else likes this but me. I've taken a while to organize my thoughts on it because I don't want to come off too grumpy; I want to explain why you lost me as best I can.

My largest qualm is with the ending. It made me feel icky, and I know you were intending that, but hear me out. Maybe it's just me, but it's hard for me to get into a story as morally wrong as this one when it's so easy-going on the surface, and especially when it's implied the protagonist suffers zero consequences for what she did. I can only assume that when the voice chimes in again after the curtains close he says, "Oh. I guess you can do that. Shows what I know. Don't mind me, you do you, girlfriend."

I got into an argument about this a while ago with Roger, and he would probably make fun of me for needing my morality spelled out for me in a story, but I stand by what I said then: Having a protagonist do something reprehensible and get away scot-free comes with it a stamp of endorsement from the story itself. And that's really where the ickiness comes from.

That, and I think this is one of those stories that would be getting a lot more side-eye if the genders were reversed.

And it's interesting, because it's not like the first scene is morally any better, thinking on it. It's easy to take the "It's fate, I ain't gotta explain it" approach at face value, but is it really okay to just toy with ponies like that? I won't dock you for that because fate being altruistic is kind of a standard concept in genre fiction, but this leads me into my second qualm.

I have so many questions. Who is this voice? Why are they in charge? What do they gain from any of this? Where and when is this taking place? Was it established that shiny and cadance been in magic school together? Why does none of this voice-of-love stuff exist in canon?

There's a lot of ways to answer my concerns, and with more space you could easily do it. And further to that, I want to +1 everyone above who wants to see more, because, don't get me wrong, I think this story deserves to medal. It's one of the most creative and well-constructed of the bunch. I just need more to get me onside and enjoy it, because I'm an asshole.

I hope some of that makes sense. Thanks for writing and good luck!

>>Miller Minus
It interests me in how readers find the latter action more morally repugnant than the first. Or, morally problematic at all.

So, tell me: why is what Cadance does with Shiny immoral in the slightest? I want to see what happens to your brain as you try to come up with a reason that doesn't hinge upon nonexistent fakery like "free will" or "fate".

>>Trick_Question
Trick, I mean this with all due respect, but the next time we're in a bar together, I'm going to cover my drink when you're around.

>>Trick_Question

So, tell me: why is what Cadance does with Shiny immoral in the slightest? I want to see what happens to your brain as you try to come up with a reason that doesn't hinge upon nonexistent fakery like "free will" or "fate".

Using means he is unaware of, and cannot even perceive, Cadance is manipulating Shining Armor into falling for her. He cannot consent to something he doesn't know about. This is immoral.

Ouch oof my brain.

Of course, I think the answer is more complex than that; I just wanted to prove that you can distill the moral question down to a basic answer without involving fate and free will. But those things are at the heart of this story, and the central conceit is the former exists, and that Cadance is capable of overriding the latter. The story's ethics are intrinsically tied with discussion of those two concepts, and any discussion of them has to consider free will vs. fate. You might as well say that you should talk about romance without bringing up the ephemeral and irrelevant notion of love.

(On a sidenote -- free will is an abstract notion, but "nonexistent fakery?" Really???)

Let me take a stab at putting this into perspective. Cadance's powers, in this story's setting, are not to make people fall in love, but rather, to kindle the potential for love that already exists (which is always how I've headcanoned it). She makes connections happen which are supposed to happen, which might otherwise not happen without her intervention, because, just as part of the context here, people being fated to fall in love with each other is A Thing.

Within that context, what she does to Shining Armor isn't... mm. The metaphor people keep using is "roofie?" Like this is magic date rape? Despite my opening statement, I don't really see it that way, entirely. The date rape/sex offense parallel isn't quite 1:1. That doesn't make what she's doing morally right, though. Because I would argue that her reasons are selfish. She is explicitly told "you should not do this," but does it anyway, simply because she thinks he's a hunky studmuffin, and she's like fifteen, and teenagers are idiots who do idiot things.

It would be one thing if Shining and Cadance were in love, and Cadance was acting in his interest as well as hers, but we don't even have an inkling that Shining Armor is attracted to her. She literally does this as he's telling her about this other girl she likes. It's a fair interpretation here to say that she's using her powers to alter fate in a pique of jealousy.

My reading of this isn't date rape. She's not drugging him. But she is manipulating him, altering circumstances for her own benefit without his knowledge or consent. I'd read it as, say, someone getting on someone else's phone, deleting a message from their crush asking them out, and then swooping in to take them out for ice cream and steak, or whatever young people do on dates. And we don't know who Shining might've wound up with, if not Cadance, and we never will, because Cadance's hormones made her rewrite destiny.

Wow! Glimmer

But for real, I do think that this is a good story. Easily one of the most creative and technically accomplished this round. If I had to suggest anything, I think you could elaborate on the ending, and the ramifications of Cadance's decision. Miller suggests that the voice not dressing down Cadance after her decision implies endorsement of her actions, and I... disagree? But it would provide a more concrete resolution to the piece.

>>Miller Minus
I made a small correction above.

Having a protagonist do something reprehensible and get away scot-free comes with it a stamp of endorsement from the author story itself.

Forgot to Mort my Auteur.

Let's do this. :dashcool:

>>Miller Minus
This is not a good analogy. Knocking somepony unconscious and raping them, leaving them to suffer the aftermath of the rape they did not consent to, is not the same as causing somepony to actually consent, which leaves them with no such aftermath.

For a better example, let's say Cadance wanted to impress Shining Armor, so she wore a subtle perfume that was advertised as having pheromones that attract stallions. Is that the same as rape? Only if you're trapped in a morality based upon arbitrary definitions.

Surely if Cadance influencing Shiny by means he is unaware is "reprehensible", then the perfume is equally abhorrent. But it isn't, because what Cadance did wasn't reprehensible. She has no information about whether Shiny's attraction to a random pony will end in happiness or heartache for him upon which to base a decision. However, she does know that she is intelligent and a princess and would likely be a better mate for Shining Armor (just statistically) than some random pony. Her action is likely to increase Shining Armor's lifelong happiness, which arguably makes it more ethical than connecting him to some young mare he has a crush on, or even doing nothing.

>>Posh
It always amuses me when people argue vociferously for or against an act that is not well-defined. Being convinced that Cadance did something wrong when it isn't even clear how what she did works or what its full effect will be suggests a moral viewpoint based upon absolutes independent of situation, and those are pretty easy to tear down.

EDIT: The paragraph below this one sounds like I'm insulting Posh and that is not my intent. I'm trying to understand the common point of view and am not labeling Posh with this thinking.

In this case perhaps it has something to do with a gross oversimplification of ethics by idealizing the concept of "consent" such that all you have to do to determine if something is ethical is see if it fits within that simplistic definition. Reality isn't that simple, especially when you're talking about situations that don't occur in our daily experience (like magic).

Shining Armor will consent to everything in his future relationship with Cadence. Her influencing him doesn't affect that. She isn't raping him and she isn't forcing him to do anything. If anything, she's helping him. It isn't so different from the perfume example.

>>Trick_Question

Surely if Cadance influencing Shiny by means he is unaware is "reprehensible", then the perfume is equally abhorrent. But it isn't, because what Cadance did wasn't reprehensible. She has no information about whether Shiny's attraction to a random pony will end in happiness or heartache for him upon which to base a decision. However, she does know that she is intelligent and a princess and would likely be a better mate for Shining Armor (just statistically) than some random pony. Her action is likely to increase Shining Armor's lifelong happiness, which arguably makes it more ethical than connecting him to some young mare he has a crush on, or even doing nothing.

...

Shining Armor will consent to everything in his future relationship with Cadence. Her influencing him doesn't affect that. She isn't raping him and she isn't forcing him to do anything. If anything, she's helping him. It isn't so different from the perfume example.

Are you arguing this for argument's sake, or is this the moral lens through which you're reading the story? Because it certainly does not improve my reading. If anything, "Cadance is a sociopath, and that's okay, because she's a smart and well-heeled sociopath" makes it, and its implications, that much worse.

It always amuses me when people argue vociferously for or against an act that is not well-defined. Being convinced that Cadance did something wrong when it isn't even clear how what she did works or what its full effect will be suggests a moral viewpoint based upon absolutes independent of situation, and those are pretty easy to tear down.

If it's unclear how the rules of this universe work, then that's a problem that the author needs to resolve in editing.

>>Trick_Question

causing somepony to actually consent, which leaves them with no such aftermath.

There's a difference between causing someone to consent, and making them consent. We have no reason to believe within the text that Shining would go with Cadance of his own volition. He could, but he doesn't seem to, which is why Cadance forces him to change his emotions, unbeknownst to him.

For a better example, let's say Cadance wanted to impress Shining Armor, so she wore a subtle perfume that was advertised as having pheromones that attract stallions. Is that the same as rape? Only if you're trapped in a morality based upon arbitrary definitions.

Not rape, true. However, that's not what happened in this story and I'm sure you're aware of that much.

Surely if Cadance influencing Shiny by means he is unaware is "reprehensible", then the perfume is equally abhorrent.

Bad analogy only gets worse.

But it isn't, because what Cadance did wasn't reprehensible.

To say this is a bad take would be an understatement, but let's continue.

She has no information about whether Shiny's attraction to a random pony will end in happiness or heartache for him upon which to base a decision.

Actually she does. Or at the very least she knows when Shining's thread will tie into someone else's. The point of the story is that she ties Shining's thread to her own in spite of knowing things shouldn't be that way.

However, she does know that she is intelligent and a princess and would likely be a better mate for Shining Armor (just statistically) than some random pony.

There's a punchline established here, but I'm gonna way till your next sentence to say it.

Her action is likely to increase Shining Armor's lifelong happiness, which arguably makes it more ethical than connecting him to some young mare he has a crush on, or even doing nothing.

Colonialism in a nutshell. Now, it's generally agreed among educated peoples that colonialism is historically a very bad thing, so bad in fact that it'll take decades to fully comprehend its long-term negative effects. What you're proposing here is the same mindset as, say, a first world country colonizing a third world country. Sure, invading and manipulating the government of the third world country without the consent of its people could seem bad, but after all, isn't it for the greater good? But of course the first world country is doing all this for selfish reasons, and ultimately at the third world country's expense. So no, Cadance is not doing "what's best" for Shining; even the story makes this much clear.

Being convinced that Cadance did something wrong when it isn't even clear how what she did works or what its full effect will be

But we do know what Cadance did, TQ. The rape/roofie analogy is flawed, sure, but it was the first thing to come to mind, and it's also not entirely off from what she did. Then again, we've been discussing what exactly it was that Cadance did in the Discord server, so I've had a lot of time to think about this.

The moral observation this story makes is: "If you had the power to force your crush to fall in love with you, would you do it? Probably yes." The fact that we don't know of any negative consequences, aside from the Voice being upset, only makes it more uncomfortable. It's like watching someone get away with murder.

In this case perhaps it has something to do with a gross oversimplification of ethics by idealizing the concept of "consent" such that all you have to do to determine if something is ethical is see if it fits within that simplistic definition.

This sounds like an argument made by someone trying to justify sexual assault on the grounds that the common definition of consent is "simplistic," and therefore maybe it wasn't sexual assault after all? In the context of this story it's more emotional assault, but the comparison remains intact.

Here's a question: Suppose you rape someone while they are in such a state of consciousness that they have no recollection of the rape occurring. Is it still bad? You might say no. I would say yes, since it still violates that person's sense of autonomy to such a degree they are effectively robbed of it. And autonomy, which is not the same thing as free will, is very important.

I'm a feminist libertarian, goddamnit, REEEEEEEE!

Shining Armor will consent to everything in his future relationship with Cadence.

Does he have a choice in the matter? The story implies he doesn't.

Her influencing him doesn't affect that.

Mainly because she didn't influence him so much as directly mold his heart's desire to fit her own wants. And no, there's no point in the story where we get the actual impression that Cadance is doing this for Shining's sake.

She isn't raping him and she isn't forcing him to do anything.

Except fall in love with her, but we've already been through this.

If anything, she's helping him.

Colonialism justification once again, just more crassly phrased this time. Of course, the colonizer is much like the rapist, trying to put some of the blame on the victim while also trying to make one's own actions appear as not entirely selfish. To say that Cadance has even the passive desire to "help" Shining here is incredibly disingenuous.

Frankly, this story works because what Cadance did to Shining was bad, both from an ethical standpoint and (at the very least) as her failing in her position as a responsible princess.

>>Trick_Question

This is not a good analogy.

It wasn't an analogy. But I do have one, and it's as close to 1:1 as I can come up with, so hear me out.

Let's say for example that I'd been given a special power by a mysterious, unexplained voice. With this power, I can see everybody's opinion on the morality of Princess Cadance's actions in this exact story. "That's super niche," I say to the voice. He doesn't respond.

But I'm just fuming about Cadance, and I think I'm gonna go talk to my good friend TQ about this so we can fume together, but then I find you, and I start to read your opinion on Cadance's actions, and I learn that your opinion is a total hussie.

If you had my opinion, you would be much happier. We would get along better, and we wouldn't have to fight. Plus, I believe myself to be very smart, and to give you my opinion is, in a way, increasing your intelligence. Sure, that's insanely egomaniacal, and I also gain happiness from having you agree with me, but pay no attention to that stuff. I'm the altruistic one, here.

So I take my eraser, wipe out your opinion, and write in my opinion, word for word. Then I say hi, and you respond, "That irresponsible fucking child," and I say, "RIGHT?!" And we get along ever after.

Would you be okay with this? Before you answer, keep in mind that I'm a princess.

By the way, to your perfume point, I think you're attributing a lot of power to a guy's sense of smell, as well as a lack of respect for Shining Armor's ability to make decisions for himself. We're living in the land of conjecture here, but the idea that a girl's perfume has the exact same sway as literally tying the knots of fate together is a bit of a stretch in my eyes.

Anyways. I just wanted to clarify my points. I don't think either of us are going to change each others' opinion on this, so I'm super down to just drop it altogether.

But let's all forget the drama a second, because I just had a crazy idea. I hope you don't mind, Author, that this might contribute absolutely nothing to your second draft. But I'm having fun and you can't stop me without revealing your identity. Neener neener neener.

So, listen.

Guys.

Coffee mentioned that he wonders if the two ponies from the beginning of the story aren't Cozy Glow's parents. I don't think this is too much of a stretch, considering one of their names is Gentle Glow. That's mad similar. He also theorized that the voice could actually be Grogar, ensuring that his ally will exist when he needs her to help defeat Twilight and her friends. I dunno if Grogar is that, uh, omniscient, but either way, if this really is Cozy Glow's parents then it's a reasonable assumption to say that this voice is evil, in this case. So if he's not a Good Guy™, why does he care so much about the moral implications of Cadance manipulating Shining Armor into liking her?

Because he knows how powerful they will become. He knows if they get together they'll be another hurdle in his master plans. Princess Cadance's hormones didn't just rewire destiny, they saved the entire goddamn world.

How's that for a moral dilemma?

>>Miller Minus

story aren't Cozy Glow's parents

What do you mean they aren’t her parents? The name Gentle Glow is so similar!!!

;)

>>Anon Y Mous
That's totally a way to say things! I present my tongue at thee, stuck betwixt my lips at an oblique angle!

>>Miller Minus
If that turns out to be the very thing the Author is going for, you and me need to high-five so dang much. ^^

(watch, it’ll be a total coincidence) :raritydespair:

Let me start off by clearing up one thing:

>>No_Raisin

Frankly, this story works because what Cadance did to Shining was bad, both from an ethical standpoint and (at the very least) as her failing in her position as a responsible princess.

I agree that Cadence's actions are ethically dubious from the perspective of people in the world of non-magic, and I agree that makes the story work. That's one reason this story is in the number two spot on my slate.

I don't agree that her actions are necessarily unethical, however, and I don't find them morally repugnant.

>>Posh
I don't see Cadance as a sociopath, so that isn't my read at all.

>>No_Raisin

causing someone to consent, and making them consent

"Cause to happen" and "make happen" are synonyms. I'm not sure I see the distinction.

We have no reason to believe within the text that Shining would go with Cadance of his own volition. He could, but he doesn't seem to, which is why Cadance forces him to change his emotions, unbeknownst to him.

If I don't flirt with someone, there's no reason to believe they would flirt back of their own volition. That doesn't make flirting rape.

Cadence doesn't "force" Shining to change his emotions. She changes his emotions with her action, just as she might do by mundane means. The only difference here is presumably her approach is more likely to work than flirting might. So she's doing it more effectively.

However, that's not what happened in this story and I'm sure you're aware of that much.

We aren't told what happened to Shining Armor in the story. There is no indication that her actions are certain to affect him. But even if they are, I don't think the fact that she can control his desire makes her use of that control unethical. Once she controls his desire, he desires her. A relationship with her is quite literally what he wants to happen. (If she did this and had no intention of returning his affections, that would be unethical, I think.)

Colonialism in a nutshell.

Let's not. Trying to bring the colonization of Africa into a discussion about the illusion of free will is out of bounds. If you want to say "the ends don't justify the means" or something, that's fine, but make the argument with your own words. You can't hinge it on social justice dogma and expect everypony to see it the same way.

As for the analogy itself, it's nonsensical. No, Cadence is not colonizing Shining Armor. He does not feel like he is being forced or violated in any way, and he's not losing territory or resources or his way of life.

If it feels like my argument is just "what she's doing is for the better", I have not made my argument clear. What she's doing is not a violation of Shining Armor whether or not it is for the better. It would be unethical if it were intentionally for the worse.

It's not a violation of Shining Armor, because at no step is he being forced to do something he doesn't want to do. What he wants to do is changing. Cadance's actions are not against his will: when she finishes, his will is to be with her.

This sounds like an argument made by someone trying to justify sexual assault on the grounds that the common definition of consent is "simplistic," and therefore maybe it wasn't sexual assault after all? In the context of this story it's more emotional assault, but the comparison remains intact.

One, I'm not trying to justify sexual assault. I think I've made that clear already when I rejected the roofie argument.

There is no "emotional assault". Shining is never forced to do anything against his will. His will itself is changed. He is not left with post-traumatic stress disorder. This isn't remotely like assault either in how it works or the intended effects.

Suppose you rape someone while they are in such a state of consciousness that they have no recollection of the rape occurring. Is it still bad? You might say no.

No, I would say yes. The consequences still exist. Rape doesn't leave no trace whatsoever, and bad things can happen as a result.

Rape that leaves no trace at all? That would be somepony having a fantasy about raping somepony else, because a fantasy does not leave traces. And that isn't unethical.

Does he have a choice in the matter?

Does anypony have a "choice" in who they're attracted to? Did he "choose" to be attracted to mares?

For my response to what you said at the end (I agree that her actions are apparently ethically dubious and that this is indeed the strong point of the story) see the beginning of this comment. :twilightsmile:

>>Trick_Question
While my hope is that we would come to see eye to eye on this, I realize there’s a decent chance that we will not. But I wanted to call out that I think something you said gets at the heart of the disagreement:

Shining is never forced to do anything against his will. His will itself is changed.

I think folks can agree that, in a sense, what you describe is indeed happening. But I think that’s the specific thing that Miller etc. are saying isn’t good. By changing Shining’s will through a means that leaves no clear mechanism for him to reassert it, he is in essence being deprived of “his” will. So from that point, the “against his will” that folks are claiming might be more accurately expressed as “not of his will.” He may take actions and make decisions with the new, internally-consistent will that’s been installed, but I think people are saying that it’s been tampered with to the point where it’s more reflective of someone else’s will than what would have been Shining’s own. (At least as far as romantic love goes—presumably he still retains other tastes and preferences).

However, I’ll grant that there’s a certain amount of assumption in what I’m saying. I might not have mentioned this if your one statement didn’t seem to illustrate the crux of the disagreement so succinctly.

>>Trick_Question

I don't agree that her actions are necessarily unethical, however, and I don't find them morally repugnant.

That's cool and all, but now that you made me think of it, I should probably make sure my drinks aren't spiked with date rape drugs more often.

"Cause to happen" and "make happen" are synonyms. I'm not sure I see the distinction.

Actually my bad. I should've used "force to happen" instead of "make happen." The picture becomes much clearer with this in mind, but anyway...

Cadence doesn't "force" Shining to change his emotions

She arguably does worse, which is change his will. Put a pin in that.

She changes his emotions with her action, just as she might do by mundane means.

As far as I know, there's no mundane method of changing someone's emotions like flipping a switch. And no, we're not talking perfume or roofies, that's dumb.

The only difference here is presumably her approach is more likely to work than flirting might. So she's doing it more effectively.

There are a few things that sound demonstrably wrong here, but let's just say that no, this is not like flirting but more effective. Cadance doesn't persuade Shining into anything, she forces him.

We aren't told what happened to Shining Armor in the story. There is no indication that her actions are certain to affect him.

Assuming this story aligns with canon, then yes, it works. And there's nothing to imply otherwise.

But even if they are, I don't think the fact that she can control his desire makes her use of that control unethical. Once she controls his desire, he desires her. A relationship with her is quite literally what he wants to happen.

Technically true, however, let's ask ourselves this: Would Shining have consented, or rather, did he ever consent to Cadance fucking with his will on such an epic level?

The answer's a hard no.

Let's not. Trying to bring the colonization of Africa into a discussion about the illusion of free will is out of bounds.

This is not about free will. It's about autonomy. In which case the colonialism comparison is very much warranted. At no point did I bring up Africa, but whatever.

If you want to say "the ends don't justify the means" or something, that's fine, but make the argument with your own words. You can't hinge it on social justice dogma and expect everypony to see it the same way.

TQ, I don't know if you know this... but I'm a white American. I've had a lot of time to think about what it means to be someone who (albeit indirectly) benefits from a society with a long and fruitful history of crushing the autonomy of others. I'm not doing this out of "social justice dogma," I'm doing it because it's what comes to my mind.

No, Cadence is not colonizing Shining Armor.

That's... funny.

He does not feel like he is being forced or violated in any way, and he's not losing territory or resources or his way of life.

Once again, he never consented to having his will changed, nor would he have.

Also, considering that Shining was apparently set down a different life path (the correct one, according to the Voice) before being set on a different one through Cadance's maniupulation, yes, I'd say his way of life was lost.

There is no "emotional assault". Shining is never forced to do anything against his will. His will itself is changed.

Arguably worse. But yes, his will was assaulted, unbeknownst to him. It's not like Cadance gently nudged him in a certain direction; she literally messed with the threads of fate so that she could have him.

This isn't remotely like assault either in how it works or the intended effects.

Almost like this is magic or something.

Rape doesn't leave no trace whatsoever, and bad things can happen as a result.

Assuming the threads of fate are now irreversibly fucked with, then there would actually be traces of Cadance's actions. Mainly the fact that whoever Shining is supposed to be with is now left with a thread that will remain isolated, and boy does that situation deserve its own story. But no, I was referring specifically to the victim not recollecting what happened, as opposed to there being literally no consequences.

Does anypony have a "choice" in who they're attracted to? Did he "choose" to be attracted to mares?

Are we talking about Shining's sexuality, or who he has a crush on? Because sure, while you can't just feel attracted to whomever all willy nilly, at least it's due to your own limitations, and not someone directing you to love them in particular. Fate (not free will, cut that shit out) plays a crucial role in this story. It's in the title. Shining was supposed to be with someone else, until Cadance manipulated things so that he became attracted to her. At no point did Shining himself come to find Cadance attractive; his newfound love was manufactured directly by someone else.

It's like Inception where someone plants an idea in your head without you knowing they did it.

Or whatever. I'm tired. I think I'll stop here.

I don't see Cadance as a sociopath, so that isn't my read at all.

Close enough; she's a teenager. *badumtish*

It's not a violation of Shining Armor, because at no step is he being forced to do something he doesn't want to do. What he wants to do is changing. Cadance's actions are not against his will: when she finishes, his will is to be with her.

We seem to disagree, fundamentally, on the question of whether or not it ethical to overwrite a significant part of an individual's personality, without their knowledge or consent, so that they will be more compliant with someone else's wishes. That difference in opinion is too steep to overcome, which means we've gained all that we can from continued discussion of this story.

I wish you nothing but the best, and hope that you have a long and productive career with the Ministry of Love.

>>Miller Minus >>Posh >>No_Raisin >>CoffeeMinion

I could do a whole lot of words and stuff, but I'm not going to. I don't want to derail what should be a thread about the story, and we at least agree that Cadence's act is morally questionable and that this moral question is vital to what makes the story interesting. Going beyond this for the sake of argument isn't super useful as author feedback, so I ain't gonna do it beyond saying a couple of simple things just to make sure I don't seem monstrous, maybe.

It's worth mentioning that the reason I self-banished myself from the Writeoff chat a year ago is because I pursued an argument too far on a story with similar themes, and ponies ended up hurt by my actions. I don't feel comfortable being there as a result.

Okay. That said, you guys are awesome. I love you all and I respect your points of view.

No, I don't think raping someone is remotely ethical.

Yes, I do think Cadance's actions are not necessarily unethical. I might be entirely okay with what she did if she had researched Shining Armor in more depth first, and one of the things that eases my conscience is the fact that Cadance also made herself fall in love with him by virtue of her action.

If I learned that my husband had used a love potion on me to make me fall in love with him many years ago, I'd be totally fine with that. It wouldn't bother me in the least, because I love him; perhaps because of the love potion, but that doesn't matter. What matters is just that I love him, which I do. I'm not sure why something like that should bother me.

I've written one or two or three stories (and to an extent the one I mentioned above) on this moral theme already, but I am definitely writing a story on this specific topic now. Not about Cadance and Shiny, and not very derivative, but it'll involve Applejack's incredulity that some of her friends don't mind how something happened. So thank you all for this wonderful inspiration. <3

Huh. You know, all of those stories I linked to are highly controversial. I wonder why... :trixieshiftleft:

Anyway, back to the reviews. :twilightsmile:

Just gonna slip in an actual review here; don't mind me at all.

So undeniably, this story turns heads. Plus you're automatically winning points in my personal book for writing a story that explores the psychology and abilities of Princesses. Seriously, this kind of stuff is why I got into pony fanfiction in the first place. This is some top-tier creative work.

Now, despite the fact that this kind of stuff is basically right up my alley, I'm going to have to be honest and say that my emotional reaction was a little muted. Honestly, this confused me too, but I've given it some thought and I think I've kind of figured out why I didn't react as much as I thought I would.

It mostly boils down to the fact that this piece's connections back to show-canon are kind of vague. For instance, regarding the Voice, at the very least we know that they're cold and distant, considering the way they approach Cadance. And their intentions seem to be good, for the most part, at least on the surface level (without getting into Coffee's Grogar theory). But even if we take for granted that they have these ponies' interests in mind, the fact that we know so little about it makes it difficult for me to particularly care when Cadance decides to disobey it.

Speaking of Cadance, her act to re-tie the strings of fate is kind of depicted as something that will have a lot of consequences, but the fact that we don't go into these consequences is kind of frustrating. Show-canon depicts Cadance and Shining in a happy relationship free of any of the repercussions that I might imagine when I think about tampering with the strings of fate and love. So, our two possibilities are that there were consequences, but they didn't impact their relationship, or there were no consequences at all, despite the story building it up that way.

Basically, I can't help but think that this piece may have been trying to bite off a bit more than it can chew. The central idea is certainly a clever one and it's deceptively simple, but it kind of ends up asking important questions that it doesn't resolve. And I think that's where a lot of my frustration is coming from.

I hope that was at least a little helpful; I know I'm kind of rambling here. Thank you very much for entering this round!

I'm not gonna touch into the conversations that have gone back and forth, mostly because I really don't want to try and relate my review to what a lot of other people have said (and I've not read).

I really like what is going on here on a certain level. The basic is that we have a "What Are You in the Dark" story, where are hero, Cadance, has access to sight of the likely literal strands of fate, and a seemingly powerful voice in her head directing her on her mission. What Cadance is, in the dark, is not good. I think that's interesting and that last line becomes much more grim with how casually she treats it.

That said, I do think as a minific that this is going for a little too much. This idea could be great to do a longer story on, and get more into what the voice is, what its purpose is, and to show Cadance try things other than this ultimate, final solution to try and woo Shining Armor. We could even see her renege on it if she comes to doubt that she made the right choice.

I do think there's some good writing in here, and I like the scenario as a whole, I just think its scope is so far beyond a minific.

Okay, so. This was a thing that happened, and it really happened all over the place. I'm wildly flattered that my little do-a-diddy got so much attention. I'm really not used to it, so if I miss any big questions just yell at me. I usually try to screengrab the Discord discourse but there was just too much this time.

Now let's talk about r o o f i e h o r s e !

---

Pretty sure somebody call it out in the chat, so yes, the seed for all this mess was Lovecraft. I was watching a video by hbomberguy and thought to myself, "what if the Old Ones/Outer Gods/etc weren't completely incomprehensible, but still kinda dicks?" So, yes, >>CoffeeMinion and >>Trick_Question, the two ponies Cadance is nudging together are indeed meant to be Cozy Glow's parents (I made the mare an Earth Pony because I like when tiny Catra bumps into giant Scorpia and that fit better than her being a Pegasus, but that'll probably change back). My first impulse was to have The Voice be using Cadance to bring about its own eventual release/domination/full awakening/whatever by selectively breeding specific ponies over generations and manipulating events, eventually breaking Cadance’s mind with the full horror of what she’s done with her life, but the scope of that was way, way too big for a mini fic round. So, it got demoted to be more of a True Neutral voice/aspect/shard of Fate and I swapped to a more character focused angle. A bit boring by comparison, but it fit the limit even if it came out half done like >>Bachiavellian notes. I thought about ending on a joke about Flurry Heart and how much giving birth sucks, but that felt really tonally dissonant so I scrapped it and just let it hang on the “loose thread” bit.

Also it’s not Grogar, but that’s a wonderful idea, >>Miller Minus.

Cadance has reminded me of a powered up Confessor since her first use of lovey-dovey magic in her debut, which as >>Baal Bunny points out has some really squicky possibilities. It was cool being able to explore the horror side of that a little bit.



Let me reiterate that I am deeply flattered by all the conversation not just about the story, but also the surrounding ethical implications. I got people talking about things and I feel like that’s an enormous accomplishment by itself, even though I wasn’t expecting anything of this magnitude, and the dissenting opinions were just as welcome and loved as the affirmative ones.

Good thing Cadance had that book nearby to ignore.

Quiet, you.

In regards to the long discussion about “forcing” and “will directly changed” I’d like to offer a computer based parallel that hopefully illustrates how I picture it after having a week to really think on it (though >>No_Raisin’s Inception callback is also great):

Programs often have bugs that can cause unintended effects when triggered. Certain inputs or outputs not being accounted for causing shutdowns or unintended data access, Y2k, yada yada. Brainwashing and drugging are like bug exploits, I think. What Cady does in scene 1 is akin to finding hidden, but intended, input-output patterns, or a debug mode in a game that lets you see hidden variables. “These two are meant to be together, here’s the “nudge” (incidentally, I had her use almost completely mundane means in scene 1 deliberately) that gets them there.”

Scene 2 with Shining Armor is her patching his source code directly without asking or bothering to run a beta test to see how other functions are affected. Of course, Cadance can’t run those tests because she can’t see the complete tapestry of Fate (or the Threads at all, in the beginning, hence her questioning), whereas The Voice can and warns her accordingly.

And yes, I hear you all when you say the negative repercussions need to be clearly displayed and I already have several ideas that aren’t a throwaway childbirth joke.

I want to thank >>Trick_Question in particular for her unique perspective on the goings on in and around my story. I know things got kind of heated up there—still bringing the gasoline and matches—but I appreciate everything. In particular, this bit:

[...]one of the things that eases my conscience is the fact that Cadance also made herself fall in love with him by virtue of her action.

It was apparently also mentioned in the Discord channel, but golly if I didn’t think of this at all while writing, so thumbs up to you and Cass for thinking outside my box.

>>Bachiavellian For what it’s worth, the consequences I have in mind thus far all tie directly into show canon and I’m angling for a “yes it’s fine, for now, but no thanks to you” feel at the very least. Also you’re 100% correct that I bit off more than I could chew from the outset, as described above.

>>Flashgen To quote the single greatest musician of our time, Taylor Swift: “who you are is not what you did.” I’m being cheeky, of course. Sometimes ponies do bad things for bad reasons and… I’m finding it harder and harder to defend her as a person overall the longer I carry this on, especially in light of you referencing the casualness of the last line contrasted with the horror so… Hmm. Thanks for reading and pointing that out.

I think that covers most of the burning issues that were brought up, so big thanks to everyone again for reading and commenting and discussing and keeping me on my toes all damned week.

I need a burger or something now.