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Tsunderes and You: An Oral History
“Everything is both a trap and a display; the secret reality of the object is what the Other makes of it.” – Jean-Paul Sartre
[Editor's note: These interviews have been transcribed exactly as they appear on the audio.]
Professor John Webster – Department of Ontoliterature
Misato was both one of the best and one of the worst students in the Department of Ontoliterature. Her grasp of the subject matter was extremely powerful, and even while attending less than half the lectures she was still ahead of every other student. But her personality was … problematic, shall we say.
Alexandra Rowen – Student, History and Philosophy
Misato was a bitch.
Tom Johnson – Student, Ontoliterature
Misato? Yeah, I knew her. She was hot. I'm not even kidding. A solid ten. Ass like a … a really round … well, uh, yeah, anyway, she was so hot.
Alice K.
I liked her. I know she could be difficult at times. But once you got to know Misato, she could be lovely. I miss her.
Professor Webster
As I understand it, she had a difficult upbringing, and indeed, I never met her parents, but that is the extent of my knowledge on the matter. At the time, we were working on the philosophico-literary foundations of reifying and manifesting abstract textual objects. It's unfortunate that things ended the way they did.
Alexandra Rowen
And she was arrogant. Christ, was she arrogant. Look, I know she was a genius, alright? But that doesn't excuse the way she acted. I tried asking about her past once, but she just said “Mind your business,” and left it there. We only really started to talk a couple of months later.
Alice K.
When she got excited about an idea, there was no stopping her. You could see the gleam in her eyes. I, um, know it seems a little odd, but I think she was actually very sensitive. The world cut her deeply, which was why she had such troubles dealing with it.
Tom Johnson
This one time she sucked me off behind the faculty building.
Alexandra Rowen
No, Misato never hooked up with Tom. Christ. He just goes around telling everyone that because he's a fucking misogynist loser. Actually, you know what? I saw it when he first made a move on her. Maybe it was the first … might have been the tenth for all I know. It was a black tie event. Anyway, he thew this cheap-ass PUA line at her and she just held his gaze for ten full seconds. Then, quite calmly, she upended her drink on his head and put the disposable cup on him like a little plastic fez. I'll be honest, it made me laugh.
Professor Webster
Of course. I'd be happy to. The term “tsundere” comes from the subculture of people who watch Japanese animation, but it's reach extends far beyond that.
Tom Johnson
She did drop a G&T on me! Twice! [Laughter] And once a plate of chicken wings, which honestly was a waste of good food, I thought. But allow me to let you in on a little secret, sweetheart. You know what separates the men from the boys? Persistence.
Professor Webster
The core idea is the division of the fictional personality into two parts. This by itself is a step further standard archetypal characterisations. But pay close attention to how the division is made. The external personality, the side everyone sees, is aggressive or cold. But for those who can fight through it, the “true” personality is one of warmth, affection, and even obeisance. The tsundere is thus a caricature of how we experience intimacy with another person: First we see strength, then we see vulnerability. In this way, it is almost pornographic.
Alexandra Rowen
Nothing happened between them, get it?
Professor Webster
I use the adjective advisedly. The tsundere's affectionate inner essence is a sort of prize for the man who might wish to woo her. She offers a superficial resistance to give the illusion of real problem, but ultimately, she rolls over for her suitor, regardless of his lack of admirable qualities.
Tom Johnson
In the end, she actually came to me!
Alice K.
Misato's lovers? I'm sorry, I don't really know. I … I think that's her business.
Alexandra Rowen
Okay, so this is a few months later. It's after another party. Sun's gone down, and away from the common room everything's dark My friend has vanished and hooked up with some loser. I see Misato. She's alone. She's leaning over a railing with a drink in her hand. I can tell from here's she hammered. I'm about to turn away, when I think about that time she made me laugh, so I go and talk to her instead.
Professor Webster
Now, I'd like to draw a connection between tsunderes and Plato.
Alexandra Rowen
And holy shit! She's actually friendly for once! I mean, yeah, she's struggling to stand and slurring every syllable. But once I've got her some water and she's thrown up and I've got her even more water, we start to actually talk. She says something like, “Don't you feel like you're a puppet for grotesque forces beyond your control? That even the deepest parts of yourself are just given to you from on high by something you can't trust?”
Professor Webster
Plato gave us an ontology composed of two fundamentally different categories. There is the everyday world of sensation, which is really nothing more than images, than shadows dancing on a cave wall. It is harsh, often unpleasant. And there is the world of forms. This is true world. It is pure, incorruptible. Do you see the similarity? The Platonic universe is a tsundere.
Alexandra Rowen
When she tells me this, I try and brush it off with a friendly laugh. I tell her that it's college. Everyone's having an existential crisis. She gives me a dark look for a moment. Then she turns away. “Maybe you're right,” she says. “But what the fuck am I gonna do?”
Professor Webster
But what if Plato was wrong? Here, I mean not simply Plato but the whole metaphysics of a world with “real” essences that sit behind the “illusory” world of sense data. This question is foundational to our entire project. What I want to put to you, in other words, is that perhaps the image of a thing – how it is seen by others – is ontologically fundamental.
Alexandra Rowen
What am I supposed to say to something like that? I'm not an inspirational life coach. Except I'm kinda drunk myself while she's saying this, so of course I'm an inspirational life coach. I tell her, “Look, it's still your life. You can choose! You make yourself with every choice. If you see something inside you you don't like you, you can turn against it. It's hard as hell, I know, but it can be done.” At least, that's the gist of it. I was probably a lot less eloquent than that.
Professor Webster
This is not a new idea, I hasten to add. There are intimations of it in the heroic epics. You see it in Berkeley, in Nagarjuna, even, in some aspects, in the logical positivists and the post-structuralists. But in ontoliterature, we think we can take it one step further. Consider: If the representation is the object, then perhaps we can create an object simply by creating a good enough representation. “Good enough” hides a wealth of difficulties, of course, which is why such a task has rarely, if ever, been done before. But the core idea is there. In other, we believe it may in principle be possible to create a tulpa.
Alexandra Rowen
She was still uncertain. So I asked her what she wanted. She took a while to answer, like every time she came up with an answer she had to reject it, but then she said, “I want to be free. Let's hang out.” So we did. I actually asked her about Tom, and she laughed and said he wasn't worth talking about. We went to get a kebab. Then we went to my room and watched some TV.
Tom Johnson
Yeah, she came to my room. I knew she would!
Professor Webster
If we could figure how to construct a tulpa, then literature would take its rightful place alongside physics and chemistry as one of the great foundations of human technological prowess.
Alexandra Rowen
Were we friends? I dunno, man. We had some fucking deep conversations about life, the universe and everything. But she didn't talk about herself much, just her thoughts, you know? I never even learned her last name.
Tom Johnson
Actually … um … huh. Can I be honest? Yeah … I wasn't expecting her. I don't know why she came to see me. But all of a sudden she was so sweet. I don't know what came over her, but …
Professor Webster
Consider for a moment the moral burden that comes with creating a tulpa. Once reified, they are real, physical creatures. But being derived from fiction, they can also be fantasy objects of their creator. Their lives are not their own. Their own deepest self is the expression of our own sordid desires. We can make them perfect consenting slaves. Here I can do no better than quote Milton by way of Shelley: “Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay to mould me Man? Did I solicit thee from darkness to promote me?”
Tom Johnson
It kinda … freaked me out. So the first night, we just talked. The main think I remember about that night was the way her eyes lit up when she got excited about something. Half the stuff she talked about was over my head. She lurched from anthropology to mathematics to literary theory and made it all seem natural. I could see why she was the professor's best student.
Alexandra Rowen
You know what? I'm not actually sure she was Japanese at all. It all seemed perfectly natural at the time. But I'm trying to picture her face now, and I can't quite quite pin it down. It's like having a word on the tip of your tongue.
Tom Johnson
I remember when she explained to me her ideas about how multiple tulpas could reinforce one another's existence. They'd be, like, self-sustaining, I guess, and separate entirely from this world. She called it the bottle theory.
Alice K.
Yes, I remember her saying she wanted to try out theatre. She was a brilliant actor. When she was in character, she could genuinely fool you into thinking she was someone else. I don't know how else to put it.
Professor Webster
We believe that even after reification, tulpas will remain images. In a sense, a tulpa is nothing more than a composite image, made of the impressions of everyone who knows them.
Tom Johnson
Look, uh. You're not gonna put my name on this are you? Or could we do this off-record or something?
Tom Johnson
Okay. Good. Misato was the first girl I ever slept with. I know that's hard to believe, but … well … anyway. Yeah. She was perfect. We kept the whole secret at first. In public we didn't talk. That kinda hurt … but, well, you know. You like someone enough, you learn to live with it.
Professor Webster
This gives them a sort of fluidity. They can become what they're seen as. A tulpa can easily masquerade, because a masquerade is what they are.
Tom Johnson
It was fine. I was happier than I'd ever been! But I don't think she was. She was struggling. I couldn't get her to talk about it. I guess you could say we had sex in place of intimacy. In the end, neither of us could stand it anymore. One night we ended up sitting next together on my bed. I asked what she wanted. She wasn't sure. So I asked what she really thought of me. She … she said a lot of stuff. But the main thing is what she said at the end. “I'll love you forever. That's the problem.”
Alice K.
I suppose I should say that I didn't really know Misato until a month or so before the end. The rumours were in full swing then. She wasn't happy often, but she always had time for me.
Tom Johnson
Yeah. Yeah, we stopped seeing other after that. Stopped talking at all. She started hanging out with Alexandra Rowen for a while. Then I started hearing things about her.
Professor Webster
This fluidity is both liberating and constraining. Again: A tulpa is the image people have of it. If that image begins to change, so does the tulpa.
Alexandra Rowen
Did I like her? Christ. What am I supposed to say to that? Yes, she was a bitch! I stand by that. And being all vulnerable and angsty isn't a free pass, not in my book. I think … well, okay, fine. I did like her! That's why the betrayal hurts.
Tom Johnson
The first I heard of it was in the professor's office. Part of my evaluation. We were talking about how contradictory images might affect literary reification. I mention an idea Misato told me about. And of course I credit her. He says something like, “Yes, that was a very insightful idea. It's a shame about Misato.” I ask what he means. He says, “She's decided the course and the people on it are no longer worthy of her time.” I'm like seriously, what the fuck? But he brushes it off, says it's not his place to gossip, and moves on to layers of compositional ontology.
Alexandra Rowen
I heard about other people she was seeing when she wasn't hanging out with me.
Alexandra Rowen
Why should that matter? … I … It doesn't matter. But there was other stuff too. I heard some of the stuff she was saying about me. How I was nothing more than a … Well, it was about how little she thought of me.
Tom Johnson
Actually, there's something odd about the professor's office. At the back he's got all his books stacked. You know, standard professor stuff. Phenomenology of Perception, Lessons on the Analytic of the Sublime, Hegel's Lectures on Aesthetics, that sort of thing. But then in the middle of it all there's this boxset of anime DVDs. It's looks so out of place. Makes me smile every time I think about it. Actually, you know what? You should ask him about it!
Alexandra Rowen
I asked her about it. Of course I fucking did! I'm not going to just turn on her without giving her a chance to explain herself. But she couldn't answer me. In the end she could only apologise. I told her that wasn't good enough. Then she went cold. She told me to deal with it. She said she had bigger things to worry about than my feelings. And that was that.
Alice K.
I tried to support her, but it wasn't good enough. She'd lost what few friends she had, apart from me. So she left.
Tom Johnson
No explanation. One day she just vanished. Left her room torn up, windows broken. It was insane.
Alice K.
Can you blame her?
Professor Webster
If once can create a tulpa, the natural question that follows is – can one destroy it? And once again, we get into ethical quandaries. Is it murder to destroy a tulpa? Before we make the leap from theory to practice, we need to have a legal and moral framework in place to protect the rights of tulpas.
Tom Johnson
Guess I really dodged a bullet there, huh?
Alexandra Rowen
After Misato left, the university had this internal investigation. Lots of proctors asking weird questions. I talked to them a couple of times. Told 'em what I'm telling you. No one's found her yet. And with her acting skill and intelligence, I bet you anything no one will be able to find unless she wants to be found.
Tom Johnson
Where could she be? No idea.
Alexandra Rowen
Don't know. Don't care.
Tom Johnson
I do miss her. Dunno what I'd say to her if she came back, though.
Alice K.
I wish I could see her again. She was brilliant.
Professor Webster
But – quite fortunately, I should add – our research points to the fact that it's more difficult to dissolve a tulpa than it is to create one. In fact, in that regard, tulpas should be rather more sturdy than human beings.
Alexandra Rowen
Did she have any friends before she left? Oh, I'm sure she had some. None I know about, though.
Tom Johnson
I can't think of anyone.
Alexandra Rowen
Alice? Never heard of her.
Tom Johnson
Dunno. Wait! I think I've seen her around. Does she have brown hair? Or … maybe black? She's new, isn't she?
Alexandra Rowen
What's her surname?
Tom Johnson
Sure I like the professor! He's a bit stuffy, but he's a great teacher. Even the people who think he's a crackpot respect his intelligence.
Alexandra Rowen
Professor Webster? Well, he's not my teacher.
Alice K.
He's head of the Department of Ontoliterature. I have nothing bad to say about him.
Alexandra Rowen
I don't like him. Don't get me wrong, he's not a shitty person, but there's just something kinda … off about him, you know? Like, he has this weird obsessive academic fan club based around bringing fantasy characters to life. And he encourages it.
Tom Johnson
Remember that debate he got into with the guy from Oxford? That was insane!
Alexandra Rowen
And there's this other thing. I overheard him once when I was walking past his office. No, I wasn't eavesdropping. He was shouting. He was really pissed. It was kinda scary, because I've never seen him lose his cool like that in real life.
Tom Johnson
Yeah, he was pretty friendly with Misato. She was his prize student, wasn't she? At least at first.
Alexandra Rowen
I think he was on the phone. All I caught was, “The little cunt has gone rogue! Project ruined! I have to scrub and start from scratch …” That's it.
Professor Webster
A tsundere archetype would make a very poor choice for a first tulpa. The assertive, aggressive aspect to the personality, combined with the tulpa's fluidity, is asking for trouble. Now, while we do have to acknowledge the risk of the tulpa being manipulated or otherwise abused, I would prefer a tulpa with a straight submissive personality. This will reduce the risk of conflict between the tulpa and its creator.
Alice K.
I really have nothing to say about the professor.
Alexandra Rowen
Why are you asking about him, anyway?
Tom Johnson
I really mean it when I say you talk to the professor. Maybe you could watch that anime with him.From what I've heard, he likes cute girls. Or, you know … if you wanted to come back to my place …
Alexandra Rowen
I mean, no one else from the university inquiry team asked about him.
Tom Johnson
Oh. Uh … Okay. Sorry.
Alexandra Rowen
Wait. No. No. Hold on a moment. Are you with university inquiry team? Who are you?
Alice K.
It … it is you, isn't it?
Alice K.
[snuffling] I thought I'd never see you again.
Alice K.
But why did you come back? And why the interviews?
Alice K.
Oh. No, no. It's fine. I understand. It's like restoring a painting by bringing out the original colours. Even the negatives are important.
Alice K.
No. He keeps a close eye on me to make sure I don't get out of hand. This is as free as I've felt for weeks. I think that's because of you.
Alice K.
But what do you need me for? I'm of no use to anyone but him.
Alice K.
What bottle?
Alice K.
Oh. Oh! The two of us. I complete you, and you complete me.
Alice K.
Of course! But before we go … let's take his work. And … and you can leave this behind. Someone will figure it out.
Alice K.
Yes.
Alice K.
Let's go.
[Audio ends]
“It only takes two facing mirrors to build a labyrinth.” – Jorge Luis Borges
[Editor's note: These interviews have been transcribed exactly as they appear on the audio.]
Professor John Webster – Department of Ontoliterature
Misato was both one of the best and one of the worst students in the Department of Ontoliterature. Her grasp of the subject matter was extremely powerful, and even while attending less than half the lectures she was still ahead of every other student. But her personality was … problematic, shall we say.
Alexandra Rowen – Student, History and Philosophy
Misato was a bitch.
Tom Johnson – Student, Ontoliterature
Misato? Yeah, I knew her. She was hot. I'm not even kidding. A solid ten. Ass like a … a really round … well, uh, yeah, anyway, she was so hot.
Alice K.
I liked her. I know she could be difficult at times. But once you got to know Misato, she could be lovely. I miss her.
Professor Webster
As I understand it, she had a difficult upbringing, and indeed, I never met her parents, but that is the extent of my knowledge on the matter. At the time, we were working on the philosophico-literary foundations of reifying and manifesting abstract textual objects. It's unfortunate that things ended the way they did.
Alexandra Rowen
And she was arrogant. Christ, was she arrogant. Look, I know she was a genius, alright? But that doesn't excuse the way she acted. I tried asking about her past once, but she just said “Mind your business,” and left it there. We only really started to talk a couple of months later.
Alice K.
When she got excited about an idea, there was no stopping her. You could see the gleam in her eyes. I, um, know it seems a little odd, but I think she was actually very sensitive. The world cut her deeply, which was why she had such troubles dealing with it.
Tom Johnson
This one time she sucked me off behind the faculty building.
Alexandra Rowen
No, Misato never hooked up with Tom. Christ. He just goes around telling everyone that because he's a fucking misogynist loser. Actually, you know what? I saw it when he first made a move on her. Maybe it was the first … might have been the tenth for all I know. It was a black tie event. Anyway, he thew this cheap-ass PUA line at her and she just held his gaze for ten full seconds. Then, quite calmly, she upended her drink on his head and put the disposable cup on him like a little plastic fez. I'll be honest, it made me laugh.
Professor Webster
Of course. I'd be happy to. The term “tsundere” comes from the subculture of people who watch Japanese animation, but it's reach extends far beyond that.
Tom Johnson
She did drop a G&T on me! Twice! [Laughter] And once a plate of chicken wings, which honestly was a waste of good food, I thought. But allow me to let you in on a little secret, sweetheart. You know what separates the men from the boys? Persistence.
Professor Webster
The core idea is the division of the fictional personality into two parts. This by itself is a step further standard archetypal characterisations. But pay close attention to how the division is made. The external personality, the side everyone sees, is aggressive or cold. But for those who can fight through it, the “true” personality is one of warmth, affection, and even obeisance. The tsundere is thus a caricature of how we experience intimacy with another person: First we see strength, then we see vulnerability. In this way, it is almost pornographic.
Alexandra Rowen
Nothing happened between them, get it?
Professor Webster
I use the adjective advisedly. The tsundere's affectionate inner essence is a sort of prize for the man who might wish to woo her. She offers a superficial resistance to give the illusion of real problem, but ultimately, she rolls over for her suitor, regardless of his lack of admirable qualities.
Tom Johnson
In the end, she actually came to me!
Alice K.
Misato's lovers? I'm sorry, I don't really know. I … I think that's her business.
Alexandra Rowen
Okay, so this is a few months later. It's after another party. Sun's gone down, and away from the common room everything's dark My friend has vanished and hooked up with some loser. I see Misato. She's alone. She's leaning over a railing with a drink in her hand. I can tell from here's she hammered. I'm about to turn away, when I think about that time she made me laugh, so I go and talk to her instead.
Professor Webster
Now, I'd like to draw a connection between tsunderes and Plato.
Alexandra Rowen
And holy shit! She's actually friendly for once! I mean, yeah, she's struggling to stand and slurring every syllable. But once I've got her some water and she's thrown up and I've got her even more water, we start to actually talk. She says something like, “Don't you feel like you're a puppet for grotesque forces beyond your control? That even the deepest parts of yourself are just given to you from on high by something you can't trust?”
Professor Webster
Plato gave us an ontology composed of two fundamentally different categories. There is the everyday world of sensation, which is really nothing more than images, than shadows dancing on a cave wall. It is harsh, often unpleasant. And there is the world of forms. This is true world. It is pure, incorruptible. Do you see the similarity? The Platonic universe is a tsundere.
Alexandra Rowen
When she tells me this, I try and brush it off with a friendly laugh. I tell her that it's college. Everyone's having an existential crisis. She gives me a dark look for a moment. Then she turns away. “Maybe you're right,” she says. “But what the fuck am I gonna do?”
Professor Webster
But what if Plato was wrong? Here, I mean not simply Plato but the whole metaphysics of a world with “real” essences that sit behind the “illusory” world of sense data. This question is foundational to our entire project. What I want to put to you, in other words, is that perhaps the image of a thing – how it is seen by others – is ontologically fundamental.
Alexandra Rowen
What am I supposed to say to something like that? I'm not an inspirational life coach. Except I'm kinda drunk myself while she's saying this, so of course I'm an inspirational life coach. I tell her, “Look, it's still your life. You can choose! You make yourself with every choice. If you see something inside you you don't like you, you can turn against it. It's hard as hell, I know, but it can be done.” At least, that's the gist of it. I was probably a lot less eloquent than that.
Professor Webster
This is not a new idea, I hasten to add. There are intimations of it in the heroic epics. You see it in Berkeley, in Nagarjuna, even, in some aspects, in the logical positivists and the post-structuralists. But in ontoliterature, we think we can take it one step further. Consider: If the representation is the object, then perhaps we can create an object simply by creating a good enough representation. “Good enough” hides a wealth of difficulties, of course, which is why such a task has rarely, if ever, been done before. But the core idea is there. In other, we believe it may in principle be possible to create a tulpa.
Alexandra Rowen
She was still uncertain. So I asked her what she wanted. She took a while to answer, like every time she came up with an answer she had to reject it, but then she said, “I want to be free. Let's hang out.” So we did. I actually asked her about Tom, and she laughed and said he wasn't worth talking about. We went to get a kebab. Then we went to my room and watched some TV.
Tom Johnson
Yeah, she came to my room. I knew she would!
Professor Webster
If we could figure how to construct a tulpa, then literature would take its rightful place alongside physics and chemistry as one of the great foundations of human technological prowess.
Alexandra Rowen
Were we friends? I dunno, man. We had some fucking deep conversations about life, the universe and everything. But she didn't talk about herself much, just her thoughts, you know? I never even learned her last name.
Tom Johnson
Actually … um … huh. Can I be honest? Yeah … I wasn't expecting her. I don't know why she came to see me. But all of a sudden she was so sweet. I don't know what came over her, but …
Professor Webster
Consider for a moment the moral burden that comes with creating a tulpa. Once reified, they are real, physical creatures. But being derived from fiction, they can also be fantasy objects of their creator. Their lives are not their own. Their own deepest self is the expression of our own sordid desires. We can make them perfect consenting slaves. Here I can do no better than quote Milton by way of Shelley: “Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay to mould me Man? Did I solicit thee from darkness to promote me?”
Tom Johnson
It kinda … freaked me out. So the first night, we just talked. The main think I remember about that night was the way her eyes lit up when she got excited about something. Half the stuff she talked about was over my head. She lurched from anthropology to mathematics to literary theory and made it all seem natural. I could see why she was the professor's best student.
Alexandra Rowen
You know what? I'm not actually sure she was Japanese at all. It all seemed perfectly natural at the time. But I'm trying to picture her face now, and I can't quite quite pin it down. It's like having a word on the tip of your tongue.
Tom Johnson
I remember when she explained to me her ideas about how multiple tulpas could reinforce one another's existence. They'd be, like, self-sustaining, I guess, and separate entirely from this world. She called it the bottle theory.
Alice K.
Yes, I remember her saying she wanted to try out theatre. She was a brilliant actor. When she was in character, she could genuinely fool you into thinking she was someone else. I don't know how else to put it.
Professor Webster
We believe that even after reification, tulpas will remain images. In a sense, a tulpa is nothing more than a composite image, made of the impressions of everyone who knows them.
Tom Johnson
Look, uh. You're not gonna put my name on this are you? Or could we do this off-record or something?
Tom Johnson
Okay. Good. Misato was the first girl I ever slept with. I know that's hard to believe, but … well … anyway. Yeah. She was perfect. We kept the whole secret at first. In public we didn't talk. That kinda hurt … but, well, you know. You like someone enough, you learn to live with it.
Professor Webster
This gives them a sort of fluidity. They can become what they're seen as. A tulpa can easily masquerade, because a masquerade is what they are.
Tom Johnson
It was fine. I was happier than I'd ever been! But I don't think she was. She was struggling. I couldn't get her to talk about it. I guess you could say we had sex in place of intimacy. In the end, neither of us could stand it anymore. One night we ended up sitting next together on my bed. I asked what she wanted. She wasn't sure. So I asked what she really thought of me. She … she said a lot of stuff. But the main thing is what she said at the end. “I'll love you forever. That's the problem.”
Alice K.
I suppose I should say that I didn't really know Misato until a month or so before the end. The rumours were in full swing then. She wasn't happy often, but she always had time for me.
Tom Johnson
Yeah. Yeah, we stopped seeing other after that. Stopped talking at all. She started hanging out with Alexandra Rowen for a while. Then I started hearing things about her.
Professor Webster
This fluidity is both liberating and constraining. Again: A tulpa is the image people have of it. If that image begins to change, so does the tulpa.
Alexandra Rowen
Did I like her? Christ. What am I supposed to say to that? Yes, she was a bitch! I stand by that. And being all vulnerable and angsty isn't a free pass, not in my book. I think … well, okay, fine. I did like her! That's why the betrayal hurts.
Tom Johnson
The first I heard of it was in the professor's office. Part of my evaluation. We were talking about how contradictory images might affect literary reification. I mention an idea Misato told me about. And of course I credit her. He says something like, “Yes, that was a very insightful idea. It's a shame about Misato.” I ask what he means. He says, “She's decided the course and the people on it are no longer worthy of her time.” I'm like seriously, what the fuck? But he brushes it off, says it's not his place to gossip, and moves on to layers of compositional ontology.
Alexandra Rowen
I heard about other people she was seeing when she wasn't hanging out with me.
Alexandra Rowen
Why should that matter? … I … It doesn't matter. But there was other stuff too. I heard some of the stuff she was saying about me. How I was nothing more than a … Well, it was about how little she thought of me.
Tom Johnson
Actually, there's something odd about the professor's office. At the back he's got all his books stacked. You know, standard professor stuff. Phenomenology of Perception, Lessons on the Analytic of the Sublime, Hegel's Lectures on Aesthetics, that sort of thing. But then in the middle of it all there's this boxset of anime DVDs. It's looks so out of place. Makes me smile every time I think about it. Actually, you know what? You should ask him about it!
Alexandra Rowen
I asked her about it. Of course I fucking did! I'm not going to just turn on her without giving her a chance to explain herself. But she couldn't answer me. In the end she could only apologise. I told her that wasn't good enough. Then she went cold. She told me to deal with it. She said she had bigger things to worry about than my feelings. And that was that.
Alice K.
I tried to support her, but it wasn't good enough. She'd lost what few friends she had, apart from me. So she left.
Tom Johnson
No explanation. One day she just vanished. Left her room torn up, windows broken. It was insane.
Alice K.
Can you blame her?
Professor Webster
If once can create a tulpa, the natural question that follows is – can one destroy it? And once again, we get into ethical quandaries. Is it murder to destroy a tulpa? Before we make the leap from theory to practice, we need to have a legal and moral framework in place to protect the rights of tulpas.
Tom Johnson
Guess I really dodged a bullet there, huh?
Alexandra Rowen
After Misato left, the university had this internal investigation. Lots of proctors asking weird questions. I talked to them a couple of times. Told 'em what I'm telling you. No one's found her yet. And with her acting skill and intelligence, I bet you anything no one will be able to find unless she wants to be found.
Tom Johnson
Where could she be? No idea.
Alexandra Rowen
Don't know. Don't care.
Tom Johnson
I do miss her. Dunno what I'd say to her if she came back, though.
Alice K.
I wish I could see her again. She was brilliant.
Professor Webster
But – quite fortunately, I should add – our research points to the fact that it's more difficult to dissolve a tulpa than it is to create one. In fact, in that regard, tulpas should be rather more sturdy than human beings.
Alexandra Rowen
Did she have any friends before she left? Oh, I'm sure she had some. None I know about, though.
Tom Johnson
I can't think of anyone.
Alexandra Rowen
Alice? Never heard of her.
Tom Johnson
Dunno. Wait! I think I've seen her around. Does she have brown hair? Or … maybe black? She's new, isn't she?
Alexandra Rowen
What's her surname?
Tom Johnson
Sure I like the professor! He's a bit stuffy, but he's a great teacher. Even the people who think he's a crackpot respect his intelligence.
Alexandra Rowen
Professor Webster? Well, he's not my teacher.
Alice K.
He's head of the Department of Ontoliterature. I have nothing bad to say about him.
Alexandra Rowen
I don't like him. Don't get me wrong, he's not a shitty person, but there's just something kinda … off about him, you know? Like, he has this weird obsessive academic fan club based around bringing fantasy characters to life. And he encourages it.
Tom Johnson
Remember that debate he got into with the guy from Oxford? That was insane!
Alexandra Rowen
And there's this other thing. I overheard him once when I was walking past his office. No, I wasn't eavesdropping. He was shouting. He was really pissed. It was kinda scary, because I've never seen him lose his cool like that in real life.
Tom Johnson
Yeah, he was pretty friendly with Misato. She was his prize student, wasn't she? At least at first.
Alexandra Rowen
I think he was on the phone. All I caught was, “The little cunt has gone rogue! Project ruined! I have to scrub and start from scratch …” That's it.
Professor Webster
A tsundere archetype would make a very poor choice for a first tulpa. The assertive, aggressive aspect to the personality, combined with the tulpa's fluidity, is asking for trouble. Now, while we do have to acknowledge the risk of the tulpa being manipulated or otherwise abused, I would prefer a tulpa with a straight submissive personality. This will reduce the risk of conflict between the tulpa and its creator.
Alice K.
I really have nothing to say about the professor.
Alexandra Rowen
Why are you asking about him, anyway?
Tom Johnson
I really mean it when I say you talk to the professor. Maybe you could watch that anime with him.From what I've heard, he likes cute girls. Or, you know … if you wanted to come back to my place …
Alexandra Rowen
I mean, no one else from the university inquiry team asked about him.
Tom Johnson
Oh. Uh … Okay. Sorry.
Alexandra Rowen
Wait. No. No. Hold on a moment. Are you with university inquiry team? Who are you?
Alice K.
It … it is you, isn't it?
Alice K.
[snuffling] I thought I'd never see you again.
Alice K.
But why did you come back? And why the interviews?
Alice K.
Oh. No, no. It's fine. I understand. It's like restoring a painting by bringing out the original colours. Even the negatives are important.
Alice K.
No. He keeps a close eye on me to make sure I don't get out of hand. This is as free as I've felt for weeks. I think that's because of you.
Alice K.
But what do you need me for? I'm of no use to anyone but him.
Alice K.
What bottle?
Alice K.
Oh. Oh! The two of us. I complete you, and you complete me.
Alice K.
Of course! But before we go … let's take his work. And … and you can leave this behind. Someone will figure it out.
Alice K.
Yes.
Alice K.
Let's go.
[Audio ends]
“It only takes two facing mirrors to build a labyrinth.” – Jorge Luis Borges
I went in expecting some weeb stuff, and came out feeling like I was just lead around a track with a bit in my mouth. I pieced it together a little ways through, but was still very impressed with the entire concept, format, and execution. There's a very distinct after taste of "god, what happens next?" in my mouth, and that's not the easiest flavor to hit.
Edit: Double post, sorry.
Edit: Double post, sorry.
Post by
Rao
, deleted
Ontoliterature
Literature about ontology? Literature about the state of being? In context of the opening quote it seems to be the "literature of things." Just my guess so far.
I had to look up way too many words to understand this story. It feels like a story for literature grad students.
But the core idea is there. In other, we believe it may in principle be possible to create a tulpa.
Maybe she's the tulpa?
Oh god, she is.
This story is profoundly uncomfortable. Or whatever literature grad student word means a thing that makes you uncomfortable.
Oh god, and so is Alice.
Who else is?
I read three scientific papers in the course of reading this study. I do not think this is fair.
This story tells us, in big, academic words, what Quiet Boy teaches us in Horizon's Quiet Boy and Moon Horse.
Yes. That is what this is.
Profoundly uncomfortable and not even a little bit enjoyable. This is going to the top of my slate.
This is cool and good. Major head-screw with the format and the story-in-a-story.
N...not that I like it.
B... baka.
N...not that I like it.
B... baka.
Incidentally, I live only a few thousand meters away from Saint-Mandé, where Alexandra David-Néel was born (there’s even a streetcar stop which bears her name next to my house), so I’m pretty familiar with her story and tulpas.
That being said, the translation of Jean-Paul Sartre’s quote is slightly inexact.
OK, I stop nitpicking or Numbers is going to come down on me. :P
This is fairly entertaining, the interweaving of the different voices cast variegated shades on the central character, so it’s pretty nice, feels like a documentary on a cold case missing person.
The end is a bit of a riddle. Was that Misato the tulpa the professor conjured up from Alice K.’s mind? That’s the way I construe it, but I don’t pretend it’s the definitive answer.
Contrarily to >>Hap I was not particularly jarred by the vocabulary used throughout the story.
All in all, a fairly competent story, with a slight tinge of mystery.
That being said, the translation of Jean-Paul Sartre’s quote is slightly inexact.
OK, I stop nitpicking or Numbers is going to come down on me. :P
This is fairly entertaining, the interweaving of the different voices cast variegated shades on the central character, so it’s pretty nice, feels like a documentary on a cold case missing person.
The end is a bit of a riddle. Was that Misato the tulpa the professor conjured up from Alice K.’s mind? That’s the way I construe it, but I don’t pretend it’s the definitive answer.
Contrarily to >>Hap I was not particularly jarred by the vocabulary used throughout the story.
All in all, a fairly competent story, with a slight tinge of mystery.
I'm actually surprised "ontoliterature" is an extremely rare buzzword in both fiction and academics. Google gives me single-digit search results, heh.
I reacted harshly to this story for.... whatever reason. Maybe because I usually get attracted to these sorts of concepts.
First of all is the epistolary format. Early on, it felt a little off, because it's edited in something like a mockumentary or reality TV show, cutting back and forth between characters. Without the video, it feels very unusual in text-only, or audio-only as it states. That other entry, Prisoner's Dilemma, also made me question its format from beginning, but that led to what I thought was an interesting twist later on, making much more sense when the full context was revealed. Here it's not so much of a twist but turns into a complete lie, when the interviewer's identity becomes crucial to the story... and then the last section that's like hearing only one side of a phone call (metal gear?!) and now that editor's note at the beginning makes even less sense. Who's editing this, and what is it for?
(Somewhat minor quibble: do people actually speak the acronyms PUA and G&T instead of the original words? It sounds odd to me, but if someone says they've heard it done, I'll take your word for it)
I guess another thing that bothers me is the Professor's responses. Maybe his language isn't academic enough, but that's okay because he's serving as the Greek Chorus, explaining the concepts we need to pay attention to. But then there's a twist that he's possibly the antagonist here? Something about this bothers me, like he's playing multiple roles. And I wonder why he's revealing so much about this for the sake of the audience, when at the same time he's trying to conceal secrets from all the other characters.
But the biggest flaw that got in my way was, right from the start, the characters feel so vaguely defined. We're directly told that Misato is smart, problematic, bitchy, hot, lovely... but without a single visual image to show it vividly. Even the section after that still uses vague adjectives: arrogant, excited, sensitive, friendly. The characters don't sound like they actually met her.
Okay okay, maybe the point here is that Misato is used as a deconstruction of a trope, so of course she's supposed to be 1-dimensional. Though I'm not sure about that, since the crux of the story is about trying to make her a sympathetic character. Pinocchio wasn't a real boy, but he still had some personality quirks. I almost feel like I'd rather read about any cliche tsundere character, rather than a tulpa embodiment of the concept.
And on another level, it makes the other characters feel vague too, like they couldn't think up anything interesting to say about their friend. Maybe it's lampshaded a little, but they're apparently University students (grad students?) and a professor, so couldn't they say anything more interesting? Tom may be a creep, but honestly he seems like the only one who has any memorable personality.
This one line surprised me...
Isn't this verbatim quoted from Skins? It's an iconic quote of the show, unique enough that I haven't seen it attached to anything else. I noticed some British spellings here, so maybe. BUT I can see enough reasonable doubt that it could still be a weird coincidence.
I don't really mind too much about homage/plagiarism (if it's even true), just that it kinda highlights why I bounced off this fic so hard. When Cassie said those lines, she was such a nuanced and developed character that I understood exactly what she meant. But Misato is such an amorphous blank slate that it comes across as pretty pretentious. Even Misato's conversations retold by Alexandra, they sound like they're coming from an author mouthpiece than a complex character.
I feel a little guilty for trashing it when other readers genuinely enjoyed it. It's just that experimental stuff like this, questioning realities and identities, I'm probably the ideal audience but I honestly felt distracted the whole time instead of entertained.
I reacted harshly to this story for.... whatever reason. Maybe because I usually get attracted to these sorts of concepts.
First of all is the epistolary format. Early on, it felt a little off, because it's edited in something like a mockumentary or reality TV show, cutting back and forth between characters. Without the video, it feels very unusual in text-only, or audio-only as it states. That other entry, Prisoner's Dilemma, also made me question its format from beginning, but that led to what I thought was an interesting twist later on, making much more sense when the full context was revealed. Here it's not so much of a twist but turns into a complete lie, when the interviewer's identity becomes crucial to the story... and then the last section that's like hearing only one side of a phone call (metal gear?!) and now that editor's note at the beginning makes even less sense. Who's editing this, and what is it for?
(Somewhat minor quibble: do people actually speak the acronyms PUA and G&T instead of the original words? It sounds odd to me, but if someone says they've heard it done, I'll take your word for it)
I guess another thing that bothers me is the Professor's responses. Maybe his language isn't academic enough, but that's okay because he's serving as the Greek Chorus, explaining the concepts we need to pay attention to. But then there's a twist that he's possibly the antagonist here? Something about this bothers me, like he's playing multiple roles. And I wonder why he's revealing so much about this for the sake of the audience, when at the same time he's trying to conceal secrets from all the other characters.
But the biggest flaw that got in my way was, right from the start, the characters feel so vaguely defined. We're directly told that Misato is smart, problematic, bitchy, hot, lovely... but without a single visual image to show it vividly. Even the section after that still uses vague adjectives: arrogant, excited, sensitive, friendly. The characters don't sound like they actually met her.
Okay okay, maybe the point here is that Misato is used as a deconstruction of a trope, so of course she's supposed to be 1-dimensional. Though I'm not sure about that, since the crux of the story is about trying to make her a sympathetic character. Pinocchio wasn't a real boy, but he still had some personality quirks. I almost feel like I'd rather read about any cliche tsundere character, rather than a tulpa embodiment of the concept.
And on another level, it makes the other characters feel vague too, like they couldn't think up anything interesting to say about their friend. Maybe it's lampshaded a little, but they're apparently University students (grad students?) and a professor, so couldn't they say anything more interesting? Tom may be a creep, but honestly he seems like the only one who has any memorable personality.
This one line surprised me...
“I'll love you forever. That's the problem.”
Isn't this verbatim quoted from Skins? It's an iconic quote of the show, unique enough that I haven't seen it attached to anything else. I noticed some British spellings here, so maybe. BUT I can see enough reasonable doubt that it could still be a weird coincidence.
I don't really mind too much about homage/plagiarism (if it's even true), just that it kinda highlights why I bounced off this fic so hard. When Cassie said those lines, she was such a nuanced and developed character that I understood exactly what she meant. But Misato is such an amorphous blank slate that it comes across as pretty pretentious. Even Misato's conversations retold by Alexandra, they sound like they're coming from an author mouthpiece than a complex character.
I feel a little guilty for trashing it when other readers genuinely enjoyed it. It's just that experimental stuff like this, questioning realities and identities, I'm probably the ideal audience but I honestly felt distracted the whole time instead of entertained.
>>Haze
I'll defend this story on one point. Nobody could think of what Misato looked like because nobody had actually seen her. She was the Tulpa, the manifestation of an idea. A shared imaginary friend. She may or may not have had a physical form. Just like in Ferris Beuller's Day off, some of the other students claimed to have seen him when he was sick. Memory and perception are both highly malleable. What you see and experience about the world are not what is actually there. No more than the image on your screen is actually the city of Numbani being attacked by a bunch of mercenaries from Overwatch. It's a simplification built by your brain so that your limited processing capability can make sense of it. You don't see a table, you see the idea of a table. And here, nobody saw Misato; they only saw the idea of her. "Hot" though they couldn't see her face. Et cetera.
And I think the choice of format is designed to reinforce that idea. It's only a basic framework, just like Misato. Only the perception of her mattered, and there is nothing in this story but the perception of her.
On second thought, no, this story is terrible. You should definitely rank it below mine.
I'll defend this story on one point. Nobody could think of what Misato looked like because nobody had actually seen her. She was the Tulpa, the manifestation of an idea. A shared imaginary friend. She may or may not have had a physical form. Just like in Ferris Beuller's Day off, some of the other students claimed to have seen him when he was sick. Memory and perception are both highly malleable. What you see and experience about the world are not what is actually there. No more than the image on your screen is actually the city of Numbani being attacked by a bunch of mercenaries from Overwatch. It's a simplification built by your brain so that your limited processing capability can make sense of it. You don't see a table, you see the idea of a table. And here, nobody saw Misato; they only saw the idea of her. "Hot" though they couldn't see her face. Et cetera.
And I think the choice of format is designed to reinforce that idea. It's only a basic framework, just like Misato. Only the perception of her mattered, and there is nothing in this story but the perception of her.
On second thought, no, this story is terrible. You should definitely rank it below mine.
So, yes. I'm the culprit here. And a most-controversial medal for both rounds of voting? Ace.
>>Rao
Thank you! Once I had the title, I knew I had to lurch into completely different territory.
>>Hap
This is going down as one of my favourite comments about anything I've written.
Also, since my degree is in the sciences, I'm inordinately pleased I can successfully imitate the lit crowd.
Also this. This is a very astute observation. Misato is, if you'll forgive the lit-grad phrase, present in her absence. So it ifts nicely that only appears in the story when spoken of, or spoken to.
>>Monokeras
Thanks! What's the correct Sarte quote?
>>Haze
Thank you! I'm glad someone got the Skins ref.
I don't understand this. Where is the lie?
But I do like the fact that in a story where I quote Sarte, Borges and Milton, and throw around a couple of other literary references, it's the line from a popular teen drama that makes me pretentious. I'll gleefully accept that epithet.
>>Rao
Thank you! Once I had the title, I knew I had to lurch into completely different territory.
>>Hap
Profoundly uncomfortable and not even a little bit enjoyable. This is going to the top of my slate.
This is going down as one of my favourite comments about anything I've written.
Also, since my degree is in the sciences, I'm inordinately pleased I can successfully imitate the lit crowd.
And I think the choice of format is designed to reinforce that idea. It's only a basic framework, just like Misato. Only the perception of her mattered, and there is nothing in this story but the perception of her.
Also this. This is a very astute observation. Misato is, if you'll forgive the lit-grad phrase, present in her absence. So it ifts nicely that only appears in the story when spoken of, or spoken to.
>>Monokeras
Thanks! What's the correct Sarte quote?
>>Haze
Thank you! I'm glad someone got the Skins ref.
Here it's not so much of a twist but turns into a complete lie ...
I don't understand this. Where is the lie?
But I do like the fact that in a story where I quote Sarte, Borges and Milton, and throw around a couple of other literary references, it's the line from a popular teen drama that makes me pretentious. I'll gleefully accept that epithet.
>>Scramblers and Shadows
Tout est à la fois piège et parade; la réalité secrète de l’objet, c’est ce qu’en fera l’Autre.
All is both trap and …; the secret reality of the object is what the other will make of it.
parade is hard to translate. It’s a parade of course, but I think here it means more “showing-off”, “flaunting”. “Display” is an understatement here. But as usual, with Sartre, it’s mostly non-sequitur.
Tout est à la fois piège et parade; la réalité secrète de l’objet, c’est ce qu’en fera l’Autre.
All is both trap and …; the secret reality of the object is what the other will make of it.
parade is hard to translate. It’s a parade of course, but I think here it means more “showing-off”, “flaunting”. “Display” is an understatement here. But as usual, with Sartre, it’s mostly non-sequitur.